Anybody have any advice on working with women?

[Michael TEOF]

Outside the work place I get along just fine. That's a completely different animal for me.

In the work environment, as a manager, I'm trying to strike that balance between keeping a friendly, encouraging and supportive rapport yet professional and impersonal. Some of the women want to bond emotionally with me, but as a man in the modern work place, you learn to be reserved. The work is sales and the business is very personal and emotionally intense. An emotional and mental balance is critical to a successful team, in this case at least.

Harassment policies at all corporations clearly state that harassment is anything the woman thinks is harassment and grounds for dismissal. I'm trying to make the women that work for me (as well as the woman I work for) understand I care for them personally and have some emotional investment with them. Women value emotional bonds with their bosses more and I'm trying to create the right kind of connection with them.

This is probably the wrong place to ask. But I know many of you that post here personally (especially all the Chicago peeps), and am curious what you guys think.

I look forward to reading your comments.

The Michael

PS: Anyone that wants to make a men and women are exactly the same thing except for the vaginas/penises part argument and complain about me being sexist, please withhold your comments.

 

[rockyracoon]

Nothing says "job well done" better than a firm pat on the ass. j/k

 

[booB]

PS: Anyone that wants to make a men and women are exactly the same thing except for the vaginas/penises part argument

actually you have it backwards... the men are the ones with the penises. women --> vaginas.

Regarding your harassment question, I've worked in both male- and female-dominated businesses in my lifetime, and, honestly... what you can do depends on the women in all cases. Be professional at work; don't say or do anything romantically or sexually oriented unless you're 100% sure the women you're talking to are okay with it. And keep in mind that women can say or do pretty much whatever they want, but men can easily get in trouble for saying/doing the exact same things. It's a sexist double-standard, but such is life. Also, keep in mind that women generally don't get in trouble for sexual harassment; if their superior is a woman, she'll side with the woman, and if it's a man, he won't take the man seriously. Keep your nose clean.

As for "creating emotional bonds", I don't think you need to do that to gain their respect. You're their boss, not their friend. You can't go wrong by being professional at all times, whereas, if you get TOO friendly with certain female employees, you can create resentment and drama in your workplace, and you'll find yourself in a bad situation. Treat everyone the same, or else people will start noticing.

 

[Yippee38]

Be professional at work

QFT

don't say or do anything romantically or sexually oriented unless you're 100% sure the women you're talking to are okay with it.

Which means that unless it is your wife, don't do it. It's never appropriate. Even if the woman you say it to is okay with it, somebody else may hear it and be offended by it. That too is harassment.

As for "creating emotional bonds", I don't think you need to do that to gain their respect. You're their boss, not their friend. You can't go wrong by being professional at all times, whereas, if you get TOO friendly with certain female employees, you can create resentment and drama in your workplace, and you'll find yourself in a bad situation. Treat everyone the same, or else people will start noticing.

Yup. He's a smart guy, and he's right. Don't try to form an emotional bond. Be friendly, and treat them with respect (even when they don't deserve it). If they know you too well, they will think of you as a friend, and not as a boss. They need to respect you first and foremost, and always remember that you are their boss.

 

[Kenso]

Nothing says "job well done" better than a firm pat on the ass. j/k

HAHAHA what the hell haha

man the other guys said it pretty good to be honest, keep it strictly business and dont say the wrong thing to the wrong person. the workplace is a very easy place to start drama, and probably the worst place. id tread carefully brother, dont do/say anything to anyone if you are unsure of the outcome. the status of your job should definitely be #1 on your list, and what ever decisions you make, be sure that that is whats on your mind.

just my 2 cents

still laughing at racoon, haha what the hell

 

[Pellaz]

Gotta echo what many others have said. You really can't go wrong by being professional...and if you perceive that your female co-workers are put off by a 'stick to business' demeanor, just explain to them that in today's workplace, you don't dare be anything but professional. Chances are, they'll appreciate the honesty.

I have a friend who was almost terminated because he -- completely accidentally -- brushed a co-worker's breast while they were both working with a fax machine. He had no clue what triggered the ensuing unpleasantness until he mentioned the incident in passing to me later that night. "Aha! That's gotta be it!"
He was dumbfounded, but sure enough, that was it. Sexual harassment is taken very seriously in federal offices.

At work, I won't even look a female co-worker in the eye if we're in the elevator together. According to our required annual briefings on sexual harassment, that can be considered "cornering."

Truly, the modern workplace can be a treacherous place for the unwary.

 

[Magius]

-Women do not deal with problems the way men do. If they come to you about one just listen. DO NOT try to fix it for them unless they specifically ask you to.
-Women will flirt, some of them a lot. They'll even get bawdy and suggestive. DO NOT go there with them. Not even with innocent sounding double meaning witticisms.
-There will be clicks, cattiness, and infighting. Do not play favorites, and listen to both sides if you have to do conflict resolution.
-Notice things like weight loss and hair changes, and complement them appropriately. For example weight loss should get a "Good for you." Not a "You look good."
-Read booB's post again.

 

[Claus / Intromental]

I'm sure this is quite a different thing in the US than for us over here in Denmark where things are more "easy going" and you don't have to worry all the time for getting sued. Also the fact that I work in music business makes it different, since people there seem to be getting along on a more friendly basis than behind a desk in an office.

However, I honestly NEVER think about how I talk to people with any "fear" or "holding back" in mind, I treat them the same way I want to be treated, which means respectful and with a sense of humour (when the situation is fine for it).

Example: we have this bartender at the club I work at who just had a boob-job done. Well, I went over to her and asked if her boobs had become smaller lately. I'm sure in the US I'd have my ass sued from here to eternity. But here it just made her laugh once she caught the joke (yeah, she's "slow" ).

Example: the girls that work for me at the club (bartenders, girls at the ticketsale, girls at the wardrobe) are used to me talking to them like I talk to anyone. I mean, I might compliment a guy for his ass (yeah, I have a WEIRD sense of humour - I'm not gay), and I don't see why I should change that when talking to a woman. Besides, they know I've got the best girlfriend in the world, so they are also 100% sure I'm not hitting on them.

My point is - if you make sure the girls know you talk to them like you talk to the guys around you, and they know you're NOT trying to pick them up, or that your motives aren't sexual, you can actually get away with making those "dirty" comments. At least over here it works fine.

Then again, I'm probably gonna have to change that once I move to USA if I don't want a law suit on my back, haha.

c.

 

[freakchylde]

What everyone else has said....but in regards to the issues that might arise between two of them... Explain the points brought up by both parties and how they've influenced how you're seeing the problem. If you have their words, they can't really try and lob up a "taking sides" complaint that will float. keep the jokes to a minimum, and don't do the friend thing, just be friendly. My boss in a hotel pulled that, which got everyone going over my head to him, because they knew I was going to go by the company rule book instead of playing the friend card. Being friends doesn't get work done, needless to say, the contracting company folded shortly after I left.

 

[Meteornotes]

My process has always been don't talk to anyone about anything other than work-related stuff as much as possible. I'm not there to make friends, I'm there to get my work done and get paid. This is not to say you cannot be friendly, but staying out of office drama as much as possible is always a smart move. It's a bit tougher being a manager, but keeping things on a professional level and not trying to be someone's friend is the right way to go.

This all depends on the type of work environment. Working for the government is a very different workplace than a game developer. Stuff went on at the game place that would land federal employees in court very quickly...

dt

 

[LunaTEKKE]

Even if the woman you say it to is okay with it, somebody else may hear it and be offended by it. That too is harassment.

This is a key point...and the "somebody else" can be male OR female. Jokes, conversations, pictures posted on someone's cubicle...all can potentially be grounds for a "hostile work environment" if someone passing by is offended.

Also, keep in mind that women generally don't get in trouble for sexual harassment; if their superior is a woman, she'll side with the woman, and if it's a man, he won't take the man seriously.

Any manager who uses that approach must figure they have PLENTY of time on their hands for investigations, depositions, and formal court appearances. Where I work, a manager who becomes aware of even a *potential* sexual harassment issue is supposed to discuss and document it with HR. A manager who failed to do so -- if the issue resulted in a formal complaint --would likely find him/herself seeking other employment.

Notice things like weight loss and hair changes, and complement them appropriately. For example weight loss should get a "Good for you." Not a "You look good."

...but only if you KNOW someone has been working on losing weight. Congratulating someone on weight loss when it turns out they've been ill isn't going to set well with men OR women.

Bottom line on the original question, I would echo everyone's comments who said to "keep it professional." Personally, I believe that someone who has a complaint SHOULD address it first with the offender before going elsewhere. However, keep in mind that not everyone will do this.

 

[J-Man]

Bottom-Line: Be professional in the work place, but be approachable. If they think their boss is unapproachable on issues where his advice is needed this too can be seen as harassment. Treat everyone the same in the workplace,

Business is Business, and friendship is friendship know where one begins and the other ends.
Don't under an circumstance compromise you position as a boss, that will be your downfall.

 

[Yippee38]

This is a key point...and the "somebody else" can be male OR female. Jokes, conversations, pictures posted on someone's cubicle...all can potentially be grounds for a "hostile work environment" if someone passing by is offended.

Good point. Keep in mind that everything said above should apply to males in the workplace as well as females. Telling a dirty joke to a male coworker can get you canned for sexual harassment just as quickly. He can complain, another employee (male or female) can complain, and in your case, a customer can complain. If any of those happen, you're in trouble. Also, don't tolerate that behavior from other associates. The rules apply to everybody. You might have to play the, "That is not appropriate in the workplace" card. Don't dare do that if you've broken that same rule though.

 

[Stingray11214]

Take a page from "The Godfather": Keep it business, not personal. You need to be VERY careful in this day and age. You are FAR better off being a stuffed-shirt stick in the mud on the job, than the friendly, father-figure. Your overall responsibility is to get the job done. If they have a problem that affects BUSINESS, then discuss the "personal" side, for that may be afecting their overall job performance. If they do not wish to discuss it, then drop the "personal" and head straight to the "performance".

Remember, it is ALWAYS business in the workplace. If you make it personal, you will SCREW UP!

Peace,
Ray C.

 

[lady_space]

-Notice things like weight loss and hair changes, and complement them appropriately. For example weight loss should get a "Good for you." Not a "You look good."

Actually, I would say avoid this altogether. You just don't want to go there. I even get paranoid when my female bosses compliment me sometimes... oh, you like my outfit today? What, I dress like crap the rest of the time? What do you mean you like this lipstick? My other one sucks?? <--- but I just smile and say thank you. Other women may not and may be more paranoid than I am.

The only thing I have to add is: also be careful with women you don't work with when around those you do. I used to have a boss who would check out other women constantly--it actually embarassed our male co-worker frequently. Of course, he also put his hand on my thigh during a meeting once, shocking everyone. He used to say & do other things pretty frequently as well--even prompting a "Bill, you know Shannon is not touchy-feely" from my female co-worker once. (not his real name) Sometimes I wonder why I didn't sue him for sexual harassment, then I realize, I'm a nice person and, wrong as he was, and as much of a heel as he is, he didn't really mean it.

However, I would also argue that men and women are more alike than most people in this thread seem to realize, but that's a discussion for another day.

Shaye

 

[Greykiller]

Outside the work place I get along just fine. That's a completely different animal for me.

In the work environment, as a manager, I'm trying to strike that balance between keeping a friendly, encouraging and supportive rapport yet professional and impersonal. Some of the women want to bond emotionally with me, but as a man in the modern work place, you learn to be reserved. The work is sales and the business is very personal and emotionally intense. An emotional and mental balance is critical to a successful team, in this case at least.

Harassment policies at all corporations clearly state that harassment is anything the woman thinks is harassment and grounds for dismissal. I'm trying to make the women that work for me (as well as the woman I work for) understand I care for them personally and have some emotional investment with them. Women value emotional bonds with their bosses more and I'm trying to create the right kind of connection with them.

This is probably the wrong place to ask. But I know many of you that post here personally (especially all the Chicago peeps), and am curious what you guys think.

I look forward to reading your comments.

The Michael

PS: Anyone that wants to make a men and women are exactly the same thing except for the vaginas/penises part argument and complain about me being sexist, please withhold your comments.

Care? You think you have to "care" about your team?
Ok in all seriousness...

First, I feel sad that you were not put through some intensive training before you became a manager--

You should treat them exactly the same way--the fact that you think treating the women like the men or vice versa is "wrong" indicates you might want to revise your management methods.

You do not have to "bond" with anyone, men or women, for either you or them to do the job well. They should not expect for you to care about them. Managers are supposed to treat every single person with a slightly different set of expectations, help them achieve, but never do it in a way that builds some kind of emotional bond--if YOU are 100% professional, and expect THEM to be 100% professional, then you do not need to worry about women or men wondering if you "care" about them personally.

You should do a detailed study of your HR guidelines on management behavior as well as harassment. Your team expects you to be the boss--not the dad, not the doting uncle, and certainly not the next potential boyfriend.

Take the lead of other managers. Do they socialize with their teams? Do they date members of the team? Are whispered office romances or dalliances overlooked by HR? If things like this are happening, the company is ripe for a lawsuit. If you can say that NONE of those things are happening, then you have a pretty clear picture of how you need to treat your team.

When I was a Regional Manager in south Florida, I had a bit over 100 people working with me and I was able to produce incredible numbers without once getting emotionally involved with someone on my team. Whenever I would hire a new manager, the first thing I would do is give them a copy of "The One Minute Manager." I would tell them to Read it, Live it, and come to work the next day ready to make the authors proud.

I truly hope that you wrap your head around this issue fast, for it is in the beginning of your new job where most of your mistakes will be made. If you have issues "working with women," you could get bit on the ass fast if you have misguided notions on what is acceptable and what is not when dealing with your team.

 

[Meedleyx10]

As someone who has been screwed over by the way harrassment laws go (not directly...but my dad was recently forced into early retirement for such an issue, he's fine now and has a MUCH better job btw), all i can say is the only safe bet is to leave any and all personal relationships far away from the work place, strictly keep things in the office to business, document everything that can be documented (EVERYTHING)....time clocks for you and your employees, phone calls (when and who), and NEVER hesitate to bring an issue to someone a step or two above you. Then, realize that even with all of that, you're pretty much fucked if one of your female employees has it out for you.

Basically what happened in my dad's situation is this: he was brought in as the new supervisor to finish out his last 2 years before he retired. I wont explicitly state his employer....actually yes I will (US Air Force). After relocating the family to his new assignment, he was brought in and realized how absolutely shitty thing were in the office. Because my dad is such a mean guy (sarcasm), he decided to do outrageous things like keeping track of people's hours to make sure they actually worked full 8-hour days rather than 3, made sure everyone was actually workng in the office rather than using the government time-clock to write myspace blogs, and actually started keeping track of how many sick days people were taking. One of his lovely female airmen decided she didn't like it and filed sexual harrassment charges. My dad didn't sweat it, because he had documentation showing that the alleged contact never took place....phone records, eye-witness, receipts, and a hospital logs sheet entirely disproved 110% of the bullshit claims, and somehow they (higher-ups) still acted in favor of the dumb little whore with a history of similar false-accusations rather than justly acting in favor of a man who has given more than half of his life to his country, has a spotless record, and has been given more honors than he was able to fit on any of his job resumes.

It's ok though, I'm not bitter in the least

bottom-line....be as careful and smart as you can and realize that EVEN that might not always be enough. You don't have to walk on eggshells 100% of the time and you shouldn't let yourself believe that ALL women are evil (it's just that the ones who are can cause a LOT of damage). There's nothing wrong with being the nice, friendly boss that everyone gets along with...but if that's the route you choose to take, be VERY mindful of where the line needs to be drawn and never let yourself cross it.

 

[yardleybates]

Lots of great advice given. Treat everyone the same. Be professional at all times. Be consistent. Mean what you say and say what you mean.
Try to NOT get involved in disputes between women unless they come to you AS THEIR MANAGER.

 

[nailz]

make sure that everyone at work knows your gay. That way, it'll never be an issue of harrassment.

 

[MetalRose]

Yup. He's a smart guy, and he's right. Don't try to form an emotional bond. Be friendly, and treat them with respect (even when they don't deserve it). If they know you too well, they will think of you as a friend, and not as a boss. They need to respect you first and foremost, and always remember that you are their boss.

True very true, but also make sure they know you have an open door. Women tend to vent more about work place issues to their supers (at least in my department), even if you don't agree with what they say, listen, think about it and do get back to them. That way they know they are heard... even if your reply to them is no, at least they'll feel like they are heard.

-Metal