Guts in Progressive Rock

[Postulate]

I get the feeling that, while progressive rock has become increasingly professional over the past couple decades, and although many prog bands are superior songwriters and arrangers when compared to the pioneering bands of the 70's, what is lacking is a sense of adventurousness or chutzpah. That is, while the formula has been perfected, it has rarely been expanded. I hear quality in the sense of "what an awesome song," but I do not think "wow, I never thought of that," as when, for instance, I first heard Gentle Giant's Acquiring the Taste. This goes quadruple for prog metal bands.

It seems the most pioneering in prog these days comes from the appropriation (and IMO generally the improvement) of other popular music styles. This isn't a bad thing by any means, and true, some of the pioneering done in the 70's was rather dead-end and boring, but some surprises would be nice. There are some examples of bands that have made me think "what the fuck?" in the past few years - Solefald comes to mind. But few of them are in the heartland of prog music (the Yes/Genesis/KC/etc. tradition), which is sad because it's a genre I like and would like to see continue rather than wither. In my opinion, the biggest names in prog, Spock's Beard, Dream Theater, and Porcupine Tree, are irredeemably bad and utterly uninteresting. And to add to it, it looks like we have to watch Symphony X join those ranks as well.

The closest thing I can think of to a pioneer within the mainline prog tradition right now is Pendragon. But a couple bands can't shoulder a genre.

What do you think? Is the creative spark of prog dead? Or of the type of music that SX makes in particular?

 

[Baroque]

In my opinion, the biggest names in prog, Spock's Beard, Dream Theater, and Porcupine Tree, are irredeemably bad and utterly uninteresting. And to add to it, it looks like we have to watch Symphony X join those ranks as well.

You lost me at that. DT's vocals are sometimes bland but the music has always been interesting. SX had one album in a darker metal direction, same with Adagio. They'll be fine.

Part of it is that you don't accept growls or shrieks in your music, you're missing out on a lot of great prog metal that way, entire genres like prog death metal etc. And bands that mix growls and clean vocals.

 

[Phanto]

there's plenty of good prog rock, but with the examples you give, you're talking about prog metal?

änglagård made great traditional prog this year. opeth is basically a prog metal band now.

 

[Postulate]

there's plenty of good prog rock, but with the examples you give, you're talking about prog metal?

änglagård made great traditional prog this year. opeth is basically a prog metal band now.

I'm not denying there's good prog. I know there's plenty. In fact, it's often more professionally done than much of what was done in the 70's. But it just isn't all that adventurous. Anglagard is case in point - everyone was raving about their new album, but at the same time, I felt like I'd already heard it the first time I listened to it.

 

[Phanto]

dunno which of these qualifies as prog metal, but they sound "new"/"adventurous" to me (all 2012).
beardfish had a different style this year as well.

 

[Marwen]

What do you think? Is the creative spark of prog dead? Or of the type of music that SX makes in particular?

Dude, Symphony X are still good. I may not like their new stuff as much as their older stuff but that doesn't mean SX prog is dead or some shit. Personally I'll still take something like PL over most "prog" music out there.

Same with Porcupine Tree etc. And yeah there's Opeth and bands that still offer interesting stuff.

Having said that, I think I know what you mean. Take something like Iconoclast for example, you would definitely expect something more 'adventurous' from that album than what we got. I mean just look at that banner and artwork: Laboratory, human hybrids, machines, circuits, etc. This whole theme SCREAMS experimentation. And yet what we got was mostly rather straightforward and predictable music and "ARRRGGH WE'RE STRONG MACHINES WE'RE DOMINATING YOU" lyrics. As if we didn't get enough of that "domination" and "evil forces taking over" and "battle of good and evil" stuff in the previous album (but that was at least better written).

I know that was all part of painting the gruesome picture so to speak, but for some reason I expected more modern poetry dealing symbolically with modern-day issues related to abuse of technology etc. Musically I expected more experimentation with electronic/acoustic hybrid sounds, textures and atmospheres, with more synths and rhythmic patterns and whatnot (we did get some stuff like that, like the first couple of seconds in 'Dehumanized', but they're too short and few or buried in the guitar-dominated mix), all with a good old SX feel to it. Speaking of which, I for instance expected some kind of a revisit to the song 'Church of the Machine' or some musical or lyrical link to it. I thought it was cool and made sense. You know, like the cool link to the DWOT angelic motif as the Paradise Lost album fadeout, except this one would be more elaborate because the relationship between IC and Church of the Machine is even more evident. Oh well...

Overall, I have no idea why they played it so safe. I know taking the adventurous route wouldn't get them more fans as I'm sure just as many people would be complaining about it (the same kind of people who would go like "wtf? this isn't metuhl!" after you make them listen to something like Townsend's 'The Death of Music'), and I know they consider themselves a metal band and not a [insert genre] metal band, but sometimes I just can't help but expect stuff and then get myself somewhat disappointed. So yeah it also depends a lot on the kind of expectations you have for the bands in the first place.

 

[Kenneth R.]

You lost me at that. DT's vocals are sometimes bland but the music has always been interesting. SX had one album in a darker metal direction, same with Adagio. They'll be fine.

Part of it is that you don't accept growls or shrieks in your music, you're missing out on a lot of great prog metal that way, entire genres like prog death metal etc. And bands that mix growls and clean vocals.

You lost me at defending DT.

I get the feeling that, while progressive rock has become increasingly professional over the past couple decades, and although many prog bands are superior songwriters and arrangers when compared to the pioneering bands of the 70's, what is lacking is a sense of adventurousness or chutzpah. That is, while the formula has been perfected, it has rarely been expanded. I hear quality in the sense of "what a awesome song," but I do not think "wow, I never thought of that," as when, for instance, I first heard Gentle Giant's Acquiring the Taste. This goes quadruple for prog metal bands.

It seems the most pioneering in prog these days comes from the appropriation (and IMO generally the improvement) of other popular music styles. This isn't a bad thing by any means, and true, some of the pioneering done in the 70's was rather dead-end and boring, but some surprises would be nice. There are some examples of bands that have made me think "what the fuck?" in the past few years - Solefald comes to mind. But few of them are in the heartland of prog music (the Yes/Genesis/KC/etc. tradition), which is sad because it's a genre I like and would like to see continue rather than wither. In my opinion, the biggest names in prog, Spock's Beard, Dream Theater, and Porcupine Tree, are irredeemably bad and utterly uninteresting. And to add to it, it looks like we have to watch Symphony X join those ranks as well.

The closest thing I can think of to a pioneer within the mainline prog tradition right now is Pendragon. But a couple bands can't shoulder a genre.

What do you think? Is the creative spark of prog dead? Or of the type of music that SX makes in particular?

You're right on a lot of things here. It's what I keep saying: prog as a genre has been dead for ages. It is a formula, it has been perfected, and new releases are just variations on the theme. Boring as fuck. There are still bands out there doing progressive things, by which I mean innovative "I never thought of that" things - not "insert keyboard solo here, followed by mellotron, followed by 5 minutes of guitar and ball-shaking vocals singing on a concept album about space". SX has joined those sorry rank and file. Maybe they can break out of it. For me, I am content to listen to the interesting bands which aren't doing this crap.

 

[Baroque]

Personally I'll still take something like PL over most "prog" music out there.

Absofuckinlutely agreed. People don't realize what a gem PL is.

You lost me at defending DT.

I don't get the hate some fans of these two bands have for the other. I enjoy both DT and SX and see them both live whenever they're in town. I like SX a bit more, but it's like SX is a 10 and DT is a 9. They're still a lot better than a ton of crappy music out there.

 

[Kenneth R.]

You might have misunderstood me man. I'm not one of those people. In fact, I find those kind of people pretty small minded.

 

[Sauna]

I still find a lot of stuff that a lot of bands do experimental and I do get wtf-moments (but maybe my standards are just lower, I don't know). There is definitely a prog formula these days though, and a lot of bands have fallen prey to it. I just don't feel it's as all-pervasive as some of you seem to think.

DT has been going downhill for a long time but I don't abide bashing SX or Porcupine Tree, they're awesome, even if the former isn't all that proggy these days.

And I have to mention Cynic. They've got more guts than a Cannibal Corpse album cover and their progression from release to release has been glorious. And now they've got a new one in the making that's supposed to be a huge leap, I can't wait to hear it.

Townsend's 'The Death of Music'

Couldn't read past this without expressing my massive approval for the awesomeness of that song.

 

[Phanto]

Couldn't read past this without expressing my massive approval for the awesomeness of that song.

me too I had to put it on

 

[Marwen]

And I have to mention Cynic.

Oh man, it's been a while since I last heard that band. I love it. Looking forward to their new release.

 

[Liampie]

You can't deny Devin Townsend's guts, considering Deconstruction and Ki (as recent releases). And have you heard Traestorz? A 19 minute unique approach to electronic music, like dance and techno in Devin Towensend flavours. Easily the most honest, diverse and genre-independent musician I know of.

By the way, Dream Theater over PL or Iconoclast anytime. I can hardly imagine someone truly thinking Scenes from a Memory is pure crap. Whether you like the vocals or not.

 

[Kenneth R.]

I see what you did there. Compare classic early album to recent dross. The comparison can go both ways. And btw, other new bands > both.

 

[Baroque]

I see what you did there. Compare classic early album to recent dross. The comparison can go both ways. And btw, other new bands > both.

Which new bands?

 

[Marwen]

By the way, Dream Theater over PL or Iconoclast anytime. I can hardly imagine someone truly thinking Scenes from a Memory is pure crap.

That doesn't make much sense (comparing a band to a couple of albums that is). I think a fairer comparison would be between albums from the same times in the bands' lives:

Systematic Chaos & A Dramatic Turn of Events
vs.
Paradise Lost & Iconoclast

or:

Scenes from a Memory (excellent album)
vs.
V The New Mythology Suite

In both cases I still prefer SX.

 

[Kenneth R.]

That's a much fairer comparison, and IMO, (yes you who labeled me a DT hater, be shocked) I think it's a toss up in both contests.

Baroque, how about Leprous? How about Ne Obliviscaris? Izz, A Liquid Landscape, Imagined Village, a huge list of others, in various genres. New music > stale has-beens. I can soundly revere SFAM and abhor DT as washed up failures in the same sentence without being crazy.

 

[Postulate]

For an example of a recent superb prog album without a hint of innovation, see Timeless, by The Watch (2011). Amazing Genesis worship. I don't know if I'll ever get tired of Genesis worship, but all the same...

 

[Baroque]

Baroque, how about Leprous? How about Ne Obliviscaris? Izz, A Liquid Landscape, Imagined Village, a huge list of others, in various genres. New music > stale has-beens. I can soundly revere SFAM and abhor DT as washed up failures in the same sentence without being crazy.

I listened to a bit of each of those, i dunno, man. Ne Obliviscaris I agree is amazing and doing something new but how can you compare any of these to SX/DT? They're different subgenres from these or different genres entirely. How can you say one style of music is ">" another?

 

[Kenneth R.]

I don't care about subgenres. Music is music to me. I'll listen to folk singer/songwriter followed by IDM followed by black metal followed by old jazz. It doesn't matter to me, good music is good, bad music is bad. Stuff that just imitates other stuff is boring. Stuff that is inspired by other stuff with its own unique sound is not. Stuff that is completely (as much as is possible of course) original is even better. I appreciate a well crafted song, be it Future Sound of London - Cascades, Coltrane - Giant Steps, Ne Obliviscaris - Forget Not, or Genesis - Home By The Sea.

I compare everything to everything. This has a tendency to disconnect for people who like to do "best of 2012" for example, cause it really isn't the best of 2012 to me unless it can measure up also to best of 2011, 2010, etc. Genre regardless, of course. And yeah, it's subjective before anyone says it is - you're right.

Note I didn't say one style is better than another. I said new > imitation.