Vocal scale help...

[JayB]

Since my band can't seem to find a decent singer I am going to give vocals a shot for our album , at least vocal demos for someone else to go over down the road. But if it sounds good I will just keep mine in there. Anyway here's the deal: I'm a pretty decent singer , clean and screaming vox. But I am mainly a guitarist. I know almost all the guitar scales and I have a firm grasp of harmony. However when messing around with some vocals and tuning them manually in Auto-Tune to make sure I was on pitch, I realized that vocal scales are almost all different than guitar scales. The only scale I recognized was Major. So as a guitarist , can someone explain how I should make sure what I am singing matches with the key and scale of the music? For instance if a section is in C Pentatonic Blues Scale , how do I know what vocal scale to sing over with? Any help would be really appreciated with this , as the internet is not helping me right now.

 

[AudioPhile777]

vocals are akin to piano more than guitar... which is why properly trained singers usually warm up with a piano (also more likely to be in tune) as opposed to a guitar...

 

[smy1]

I really don't understand your question ... where is the problem in using your ear and listening if it sounds good? And use graphical mode in Auto-Tune - or use Melodyne.

In 20 years of writing vocal melodies, I have never once thought about the scale I wrote the melody in. Just sing what sounds good to you.

 

[Ionei]

I really don't understand your question ... where is the problem in using your ear and listening if it sounds good? And use graphical mode in Auto-Tune - or use Melodyne.

In 20 years of writing vocal melodies, I have never once thought about the scale I wrote the melody in. Just sing what sounds good to you.

THIS.

 

[Plankis]

There's nothing different about guitar scales and vocal scales at all.
If you can play that C blues scale over the song successfully that would mean that the song is in the key of Eb major. Meaning the notes are Eb, F, G, Ab, Bb, C, and D. That A that's in the C blues scale is just a accidental, it's just there for flavor.

Reading this site might do good for you: http://musictheory.net/

 

[JayB]

I really don't understand your question ... where is the problem in using your ear and listening if it sounds good? And use graphical mode in Auto-Tune - or use Melodyne.

In 20 years of writing vocal melodies, I have never once thought about the scale I wrote the melody in. Just sing what sounds good to you.

Well I have a pretty good ear , but I am a perfectionist when it comes to getting melodies and harmony notes correct. A few times I thought a guitar lead sounded great and then later I went back over it and realized it my haste I played a few off scale notes. What's wrong with wanting to make sure I am doing it correctly? I don't just like to wing it , since I am not a professional singer. I just want to know how I should create melodies that I know fit properly over the scale and key of the song. So are you guys saying I should follow a piano scale? For instance I have a piano scale inside of Guitar Pro 5 , which will take a guitar melody and convert that into how it is played on a piano. So basically , could I export the midi info from that and put it in Pro Tools or something and follow that as my vocal melody?

 

[JayB]

One more thing ; smy1 ; I'm just asking a question here , but if you never think about the scale you wrote the vocal melody in , then how do you make sure it on scale with Auto-Tune? I always have to tell it what the scale is so it can match the notes to the scale.

 

[Ionei]

How could you not realize you played off notes in a scale while tracking?
Or was it improv?
even then i would notice if i played an outside note accidentally.

With knowing what scale it was sung on in auto-tune etc the notes should be pretty darn easy to find as it SHOULD be the closest note it is near to.
If it isn't it should be re-recorded.

Also if you know almost all of the scales and are familiar with how they sound you should be able to pick the scale by ear relatively easily

A way to write a melody in key without just doing it naturally would be playing notes of the scale whilst pitching the words to the notes, although this would take alot longer.

I really can't understand how you can't just hum the melody or some such, the same as if you were improving a guitar solo.

 

[JayB]

I don't understand how everyone is misunderstanding me so much. Yes I know my guitar scales , but if you are playing a fast solo it is possible to hit a wrong note and miss it, I'm only human. Of course I could hum a vocal melody , my question is just regarding making sure it is "correct". The same way if you were recording a band you would make sure that a solo is in the right scale , or notes aren't clashing in a harmony... you would follow the scale. Also Ionei ,is it possible then to just create a vocal melody using a guitar , and just singing the same notes? My only other question then is when you import that track and try to auto tune it , how do you know what the vocal scale is? Because you have to tell Auto Tune what scale you are in to correct the pitch properly.

 

[BLUElightCory]

You need to think less like a theory major and more like an artist. If it sounds good, it's good, and it doesn't matter what scale you're in. Obviously, scales are great fundamental knowledge and can be useful in composition, but you need to rely on your ears and your emotions more.

I find it best to edit vocals using the "graphical" mode in Auto Tune, which doesn't require any scale input unless you're using the "Import Auto" command. If you're using or importing settings from "auto" mode, just leave the scale as "chromatic," remove or bypass ALL of the notes, and then re-add only the notes that you're actually singing. Auto Tune will also allow you to create a scale by playing the notes in with MIDI. But it's still easiest and sounds best to just import the take in graphical mode and manually tune each note to its proper pitch.

 

[Loki Laufeyiarson]

I don't get it... You know scales on your guitar, you know what scale you're playing in, but you don't know what the scale is you're (supposed to be) singing in? Somehow it just doesn't connect in my head. Shouldn't it be the same scale? Or at least one of the other scales that would also sound good when playing a guitar solo over the rythm-part? So that would be the scale you would want to enter in autotune. At least that's what I think.

 

[Tape Deck]

Notes are notes.

How did the world ever get along without Autotune?

 

[hurdy]

...For instance if a section is in C Pentatonic Blues Scale , how do I know what vocal scale to sing over with?...

It would help if you could learn how to apply your guitar scales & notes onto a piano/keyboard using note intervals or something. But if I was you, go into autotune VST, then I would select the key of C, then select Minor as the scale. If you hear some vocal notes go off key, then loop that part & find out what note is being played on the autotune keyboard. Manually turn off the odd sounding note. You might wanna turn on the nearest note to see if it works better than the note that was just turned off. Try it out, see if that one works!

PS I have found that alot of vocalist tend to sing in Mixolydian with bluesy-rock stuff. So maybe try the autotune VST with Major selected as the scale (Mixolydian is a major scale with flat 7th note)

EDIT: In autotune VST select song key & choose the Chromatic Scale from the drop-down menu (located up the top)
On the note-list below, select major or minor... just see which scale works best for the song
Also, can turn notes on/off this way because the chromatic scale contains every note

 

[JayB]

Ok guys thanks for the help , I guess I will just try to come up with something that sounds best...but especially if I want to do vocal harmonies , I definitely think I would need need to know what scale I am in.Like I know Howard Jones is not just winging it you know?

I don't get it... You know scales on your guitar, you know what scale you're playing in, but you don't know what the scale is you're (supposed to be) singing in?

Like I said before , vocal scales are different ( at least differently named) than guitar scales

 

[dmmi]

JayB....I understand Exactly what you are saying.....and it sounds like your having trouble with modes.
Take what Plankis had to say as correct, but remember that your bass note (or arpeggio) will denote and/or imply the mode you are playing in and will alter the "feel" of your vocal runs...but your notes will not change unless there is an actual melodic key change.

So lets stay simple....and say you are playing in A minor...those notes are A,B,C,D,E,F,G.....which are the same notes as:
- C Ionian (Major key)....Happy....major 7 chord
- D Dorian....Bluesy Sad.....minor 7 chord
- E Phrygian.....Dark and Egyptian feel.....minor 7 chord
- F Lydian.....Mystical....major 7 chord
- G Mixolydian......Bluesy Happy......Dominant 7 chord
- A Aeolian (natural Minor)....sad....Minor 7 Chord
- B Locrian....dark and jazzy......Diminished 7 chord
(Note for all chords above a power chord of the root can be substituted for the same feel)

So given that, If your chugging on power chords of root E, then D, Then B.....even though those notes are part of the e minor 7 chord, if you stay on any one of those notes for any length of time it will start to imply the modes above...IF the bass is following...BUT
If your doing fast runs with the notes E, G, B, D....it would imply E phrygian as long as the Bass is focused on E or B.

So the moral of this is that the reason you identified with the "major" key, your actually identifying with any mode within your implied progression....SO if your trying to do harmonies you have to keep this in mind as to not alter the mood or feel too much inadvertently....but having said that if your song is within a certain key you can correct the pitch with auto tune to the major and it WILL reflect the modes you playing.
eg. if your in E minor....auto tune to G major
if your in D Phrygian.....auto tune to Bb Major....etc.

Also note, that as you sing by feel....you'll naturally flow with the progression of your song so the above rules apply. Then you can take auto tune to let you know the notes your actually singing to harmonize with guitars runs...etc...etc...etc.

(That will be $50.....next lesson next week?).....Just kidding!!

HTH

 

[zackpennington]

I know hardly anything about theory. Just use graphical mode and move notes around until it sounds good. Who cares if it's correct. If it sounds bad you will hear it, and if you can't you need practice listening to (instead of practicing or learning about) music.

 

[JayB]

Thanks for all your help guys ! I know I should just go with what sounds good , I am just a little taken aback that so many are just not really caring about theory. But now I know it isn't as big a deal as I thought it was !

 

[Tape Deck]

What's weird is that you tell people they don't care about theory, while you say things like "vocal scales are different from guitar scales."
Music theory education would inform you that notes are notes, scales are scales, and the only thing that is immaterial is the instrumentation.
They aren't named differently, or used differently by vocalists, except in the case where the vocalist really doesn't know anything and just likes to use big fancy words. Like, "appoggiatura."

Most rockers don't know much actual book theory... most know practical applied theory to varying degrees... functional knowledge. This includes many of our permanent favorite musicians... Marty Friedman will always be a king in my universe, because of Rust in Peace. But he doesn't know the theoretical names for a lot of what he's doing. He knows more than he pretends to know, but most of his bag is practical.

DMMI is on the right track, though (you can't play Locrian against a diminished 7, though. It'd be a m7b5 or a half diminished chord)... it sounds like the myriad of names used via modal harmony are what screw you up.

There are 2048 different ways to use 12 notes (patterns from 1 to 12 notes) and even the best of the best don't memorize all of that stuff.
Do yourself a solid, and get used to the 7 modes of the major scale, 7 modes of melodic minor, and 7 modes of harmonic minor.
That's far more than most people bother with, and it's almost everything (scalar) you ever need for playing on metal, rock, etc.

What it will do for you, vocally, is help you be able to hit particular intervals better, and lessen the need for autotune.
What it will do for you compositionally, is help you get the hell away from "that one sound" that you feel trapped by (we all have it.)

 

[JayB]

What's weird is that you tell people they don't care about theory, while you say things like "vocal scales are different from guitar scales."

I wasn't trying to say I am a master of music theory , far from it , I know only some guitar theory. I was merely pointing out that I thought it was strange others don't pay much attention to it. When I said vocal scales are different , I meant they are named differently in Auto-Tune, so I don't recognize them. And when I said I use Auto-Tune , it is only to make sure I am on pitch , if I am far off I just re-record.

 

[BLUElightCory]

What's weird is that you tell people they don't care about theory, while you say things like "vocal scales are different from guitar scales."
Music theory education would inform you that notes are notes, scales are scales, and the only thing that is immaterial is the instrumentation.
They aren't named differently, or used differently by vocalists, except in the case where the vocalist really doesn't know anything and just likes to use big fancy words. Like, "appoggiatura."

Most rockers don't know much actual book theory... most know practical applied theory to varying degrees... functional knowledge. This includes many of our permanent favorite musicians... Marty Friedman will always be a king in my universe, because of Rust in Peace. But he doesn't know the theoretical names for a lot of what he's doing. He knows more than he pretends to know, but most of his bag is practical.

DMMI is on the right track, though (you can't play Locrian against a diminished 7, though. It'd be a m7b5 or a half diminished chord)... it sounds like the myriad of names used via modal harmony are what screw you up.

There are 2048 different ways to use 12 notes (patterns from 1 to 12 notes) and even the best of the best don't memorize all of that stuff.
Do yourself a solid, and get used to the 7 modes of the major scale, 7 modes of melodic minor, and 7 modes of harmonic minor.
That's far more than most people bother with, and it's almost everything (scalar) you ever need for playing on metal, rock, etc.

What it will do for you, vocally, is help you be able to hit particular intervals better, and lessen the need for autotune.
What it will do for you compositionally, is help you get the hell away from "that one sound" that you feel trapped by (we all have it.)

So true.

The best advice I ever got from an educator was "Go ahead and learn music theory. Then forget it."