- Aug 14, 2008
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I love how Glenn asks to to stop talking about piracy and people resume talking about piracy.
ITT nobody can read.
ITT nobody can read.
Warner absorbs Roadrunner Records EU and UK, people lose jobs, bands get pissed
- Thread starter AeonicSlumber
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Mosquito
oh noes!!
- Aug 14, 2008
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dcowboys311
Member
That's pretty different.....
With a label (label meaning something like RR, CM, NB, whatever) you're pretty much in debt until you sell enough to recoup the costs. Obviously it depends from agreement to agreement I know you know all this stuff already so I'm not going to bother, just trying to clarify the difference.
From what it looks nailz is talking about, it's something like 'oh well no royalties for you but every dollar from every album you sell is yours'. This works out pretty well. A good friend of mine recently had the tape version of his record put out by a reputable label, limited to 500 copies, only arrangement is that he got 20% of the copies to do with what he wants. So in theory that's 100 units sold at $x cost with every penny going to him. Obviously it's not THAT much, especially after free friend copies/whatever, but it works and leaves a lot of the work up to the individual artist. And it's likely more than an underground black metal musician would have seen otherwise (and for the record all 500 copies are long sold out).
If you could get good, wide distribution deal without a label playing a mandatory middle man, then lots of problems could be solved.
- Aug 14, 2008
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Nailz spefically mentioned "the rights to sell things directly themselves too" as if bands don't sell CDs on tour...
TribunalRecords
Record Label(s)/Vocalist
Not sure, I didn't sell Roadrunner, Cees did so i wouldn't know how much money he got for the 73.5% stake in RR. He may have profited enough to start a new label, but considering the 30 years he put in with RR he just walk away.
TribunalRecords
Record Label(s)/Vocalist
We al do hobbies for free, but a job is a job and we all expect to get paid regardless of what industry we are in.
does the school you work at give away DEGREES for free? or do you have to pay for classes to eventually earn that degree? Classes are just a means to the end most of the time for younger students. employers used to want to see a degree in something not a list of classes you took, correct? i am old so maybe things have changed. so again, is the degree you are selling to students free? and if it was would your job then become obsolete? sure it's far fetched, but again free is free and if students could print a diploma online would they actually pay for classes?
TribunalRecords
Record Label(s)/Vocalist
No offense taken because I don't expect this board to like anything that i release but considering i have been in business since 1999 there are a few people out there who dig what i do, but i have plenty of releases that didn't connect and i don't expect everything i do to sell or sell well for that matter. it's the nature of the beast sometimes.
But at the same time there are plenty of releases i have done that i expected to sell well, but it didn't and not for a lack of trying on both band and my part. So, it makes us labels and bands wonder all the time what effect illegal downloading has on sales in reality because right now it's all hypothetical conjecture.
TribunalRecords
Record Label(s)/Vocalist
So where is the advertising budget factored into this? or the budget to hire a PR firm to help promote the album that would in fact lead to actual sales and people coming to shows. Also, do you know how much it costs to press "a ton of cds"? Not cheap. And playing shows and being able to sell 500-1000 cds would mean they have a fan base to support that which as we all know most local bands don't.
the DIY route is an option for bands who has amassed a large following already, but how did they amass that large following? because a RECORD LABEL spent thousands of dollars in advertising and tour support getting the bands name out there.
The bottom line is that record labels are needed unless bands personally want to take out a loan in their own name to pay for all the things mentioned above plus a van and trailer, gas for the tour, merchandise (for tour), etc. Record labels take on the financial burden and therefore need to make the money back.
I do the DIY thing with my own band and back in our heyday i was fronting $15,000 for merchandise on a 2 month US tour - using the money the band generated from 15,000+ record sales. So if bands have that kind of loot around (without that amount of record sales) more power to them. I am an exception because i am both band leader and record label.
If there are other bands members on here with opinions now is the time to let everyone know how successful the DIY approach has gone for you.
nailz
Member
I dunno, I quoted directly from the story and Matt Heafy's comment calling people jerks indicating that I had done EXACTLY what he's bitching about FOR HIS BAND. I don't understand how that's not relevant. The article specifically quotes musicians saying that piracy is assisting in the closing of RoadRunner, and I replied to that.
Also I replied before I got to Glenn's post.
TribunalRecords
Record Label(s)/Vocalist
and this happened where? hahaha, you and i both know it's nearly impossible. hahaha. "pipe dream"
nailz
Member
I don't know how much of that is profit, or how much they pay their distributers for copies to sell on the road, or how they get those. What I'm saying is that if bands went to a distro and said "here's 5000 CD's. Get them out there, and take your cut."
The way I understand it working now, is that a distro/label will say "we have exclusive rights to get your CDs out there, and not even you can get more without our say so." If that's wrong, fine, inform me, but I really think the change that needs to happen is that bands need to sell lots to Distros to do with as they will for a small % of profit. Example, if BandX sold to DistroY a lot of 5000 CDs for $3 a CD and DistroY sold them for $10 a pop, then BandX already has their $15,000, and now DistroY has $35,000 of profit. Meanwhile, BandX now has all of those CDs extra to sell at any of their shows, any small metal shops, or on their website. The work needs to shift from Distros to bands. Bands need to sell their own shit to make maximum profit.
Labels should have similar deals in place with bands. Bands should be able to cut a deal for a label to sign them for X dollars, or X sales, and not see a penny from the Label until those numbers have been eclipsed. The problem as I understand it now, is that bands are NOT free to do what they will with their own product, or can't recoup 100% profit in any way.
nailz
Member
TribunalRecords
Record Label(s)/Vocalist
Because no REAL DISTRIBUTOR will touch a single DIY band release. Sure, CD Baby and places like that target indie bands and sell their product online in their Estore and make their product available via Super D One Stop in California for retail stores.
But having a real distributor means having sales people working your product to stores and places that will carry it. the investment of time and money isn't going to be worth it to a distributor to carry a single title by one DIY band which is why CD Baby does it, but again CD Baby have no sales people trying to actually SELL your product.
- Aug 14, 2008
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For one thing, real distributors like Sony Red, Caroline/EMI, etc require their labels to spend a minimum of promotional money via advertisements, press campaigns, etc to push the record. There isn't a DIY band in the world that has 50 grand a year to blow on this.
dcowboys311
Member
dcowboys311
Member
And while we're at it, please define your measure of success -- name recognition, ability to live off your music, # of heads drawn to shows, whatever -- before I blow my load./
TribunalRecords
Record Label(s)/Vocalist
When a band signs to a label they are signing their music over to the label to OWN it for designated time in the contract. They are getting ready to invest a ton of capital in it so they want to OWN IT.
Labels sell CDs to bands. i have never heard of a label not selling CDs to bands who want to take them on the road with them.
Also, full time touring bands do not have time to become their own distribution and selling to every little distro on the planet. How would they keep up with all that from the road? oh yeah, pay a manager or something so therefore even more money coming out of their bottom line as a group.
This discussion looks good on paper, but it's not a reality at all.
TribunalRecords
Record Label(s)/Vocalist
Success for a band i would be in would being able to live off the music that i make.
If i could not do that, would i be grateful for all the fans and their appreciation of the music i make, sure thing. but at some point paying bills is going to take away from the time being able to be spent on the music.
It's that way right now for me. It's been 5 years since we release a new album, and i had no plans to do a new one but an opportunity presented itself so we are making a new album. Will i tour for it, probably not because the money is no longer there and i have a mortgage and labels to run. But i am making the album for the fans because they have been hounding up for something new. so i am appreciative that we have a fan base that is interested in new material even after 5 years.
But to me is Killwhitneydead successful? Not really, in the grand scheme of things. It was a fun hobby for the last 10 years and i got to see a ton of the country while on tour. i am grateful and fortunate that our fans afforded me the chance to do it.
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