2008 Political debate thread

[ABQShredHead]

Most businesses, though, cannot run simply on the profits they make. They need start-up cash in order to get into business first; and, then they must repay those debts, get new investors to increase capital, and pay out on the investments of the investors.

Company revenues are then used to pay the company's workforce and other operational expenses. The money left over, the margins, are what attract more investors to a firm. By reducing opex, you increase margins, thereby increasing your company's attractiveness to more investors. More investors then give you the capital money to expand your business.

Business will not run without investors, whether it's money from your parents to buy the lemonade to open a lemonade stand in front of your house or millions of dollars to buy equipment and hardware required for your workers to do their daily jobs.

That said, there are plenty of people who look to make a quick dollar off the stock market. Some people do. Lots of people don't. And when they don't, they get desparate, moving their cash from corporation to corporation, at times causing panic in other investors if a large enough number of people are pulling cash out of a company. It's a vicious cycle, for sure. I think what I can add to your argument is that Wall Street needs better principled people investing in corporations.

 

[razoredge]

Its just another one of those catches I guess. Im not sure why it was still needed at one time, once the States had become a industrial giant, decent money, fairly well balanced and things were going pretty smoothly for a few decades. Im afraid things will never change but it still frustrates the hell out of me. Maybe long term investments only, thats kind of what the banks do with us for CD's, the government did for IRA's. Its big time "global" now, no stopping it. All the changes I want would start massive wars... I know that.

 

[Progged]

Just to point out, Anti trust laws are some of the most socialistic restrictions of business to ever get put into law. These sort of things create monopolies, they don't stop them from happening. The government needs to stay the fuck out of our economy 100%. Saying you're for capitalism and for anti-trust is a giant contradiction of beliefs.

Yeah, that's been pointed out a couple of times - I'm one big gigantic contradiction. Let's just say I like them on principle... Just like others have pointed out that unions are great on principle... I guess it's the jackasses that find loopholes to exploit *coughLAWYERScough* in these programs that turn me off of them...

 

[Yngvai X]

Yeah, that's been pointed out a couple of times - I'm one big gigantic contradiction. Let's just say I like them on principle... Just like others have pointed out that unions are great on principle... I guess it's the jackasses that find loopholes to exploit *coughLAWYERScough* in these programs that turn me off of them...

I even find the principle of anti trust laws abhorring... if a business man wants to charge more, he can be penalized for "intent to monopolize", if he charges too little, he can be fined for creating "unfair competition", if he charges the same price, he can be prosecuted for "conspiracy". So as you can see, it does nothing but let the government and whatever lobbyists are dipping into their pockets regulate the cost of things. There is no loophole, its just a fucked set of laws.

Well, at least you can admit you contradict yourself

 

[razoredge]

its hard not be be a hypocrite

so the anti trust laws are the laws about "price fixing" ?

I had this conversation with a few of the block companies I worked for. They were talking about how the price of block had'nt gone up in over a decade. So I said, its easy, we all need to make more money, the rest of the country is making more money. so get on the phone and call ____ and ____ and say "look, this is crazy, lets raise the price of block 10 cents"....... everybodys jaw dropped and they said "first of all thats illegal and will land you in jail"....... I said "fuck 'em !" ..... lol . So all those companies are still struggling along, business is slow, no ones going anywhere, inflated utilitiy expenses are killing them, they cut their throats under bidding each other...... all sounds like a good plan to me.....

We did the same thing in the logging business, we kept bidding higher and higher for standing trees, just to "get the job" like it might be the last chance.... yet none of us ever ran out of work, we just destroyed our profit margins. So next thing you knew the profits were grim, then there was over production, housing slowed, the paper mills evacuated and we were screwed. So many guys had paid more for standing trees than they could sell them for...... oh yea! capitolism rocks!.... sorry Ill take a little cooperative organization and thought out long term planing anyday. Both are ideal talked about and praised in every aspect except business because they "violate" some supposed rule of capitolism. I say, fuck capitolism lets give logic a try

 

[Progged]

Capitalism rules. Stupid decisions are just that...

 

[Yngvai X]

So sacrificing people's individual rights is more logical than not?

With the first scenario, what made raising the cost was the anti trust laws... you certainly should have been able to do that if you wanted to and made more money... if the product is good enough and people are willing to pay it they will.

With the second scenario, you can't always judge how one industry is doing based on itself. Your industry is not the only one competing for someone's dollar. Rising prices in one industry might be due to the higher cost of other ones. Without an anti trust law, someone in some industry could come along with a more affordable method of creating the same goods. Then everyone will start buying their product and it will force the overall price of the same product down, giving people the ability to spend more on other things. That is pure capitalism at work. People in the recording industry bitch that the internet and piracy are the causes for lower record sales, could it not also have something to do with the shitty ass economy and rising gas prices? If some college kid has to choose between filling his gas tank or buying a CD, what do you think he's gonna do?

 

[DoomsdayZach]

CD prices have been rising for ages though, WAY before ridiculous gas prices. This is a different arguement altogether, but most people here would agree that people will buy gas over cds because major label records are shit, not because tehy're too expensive.

 

[Progged]

The record industry is a gigantic piece of crap. Once CEOs were no longer industry professionals, and everything was based on quarterly profits - it all went into the toilet.

I highly recommend everyone watch the documentary "Before the Music Dies". There is a part of it on the website http://www.beforethemusicdies.com/

 

[DoomsdayZach]

Was it here or somewhere else? Not sure... but best quote i've heard was something to the effect of "The music industry started to suffer when music stopped being art and became a commodity"

 

[razoredge]

Somehow I dont think we are all following each other here. I know Im lost as to how anything you (ynwvai) said relates to what I was getting at. Nor do I know what Progged is calling stupid decisions. Seriously

Rising oil prices are capitolism at its finest, it is in fact global capitolism

[no sarcasm here] So I guess beings how capitolism rules we should all celebrate the rising cost of oil... hey Im psyched and looking forward to the next big inflation boom. The housing one worked out well.........

capitolism promotes greed, corruption, and using others for one's own gain, sorry these are all qualities in people I hate, theres even laws and commandments written against them....... but ya know.....

seems to me as a society of self proclaimed higher intellegence we could figure out a happy medium thats void of all these problems without insulting those that are obsessed with living by the capitolistic view or calling those that want a more even balance of the scale communists......

I have a hard time believing the internet has not hurt the music industry and many others.

I also think the DWI laws have hurt local entertainment industries....... I vote that it should be illegal for anyone sober to be on the roads after 9:00 at night.............. lol!

 

[razoredge]

The record industry is a gigantic piece of crap. Once CEOs were no longer industry professionals, and everything was based on quarterly profits - it all went into the toilet.

I highly recommend everyone watch the documentary "Before the Music Dies". There is a part of it on the website http://www.beforethemusicdies.com/

Thats capitolism... 'ol boy

 

[Yngvai X]

Thats capitolism... 'ol boy

And an artist creating art for his own artistic vision and not the vision of, or for others, would also be crushed should society become soclialist/communistic. Record labels are, and always have been, a means to an end (distribution and promotion of an artists work) and not an end unto themselves. Record labels become corrupt and start abusing the artists, treating them as slaves, and buying control of the media, like if the horse of a carriage suddenly decided where he was taking his driver and not allowing him to get out. Capitalism sure, but of the corrupt and dishonest kind. You don't fight corrupted individualism by destroying individualism all together. Then you just have corrupted communism, so now not only is the individual artist not allowed to create what he wants, but the ones that are willing to submit themselves are at the mercy of the government aided record labels. At least in an individualist society (read: capitalist) I still have the freedom to create and make for myself, with honesty and integrity, what I desire.

To quote Neil Peart: "The most endangered species, the honest man/will still survive annihilation/forming a world, state of integrity/sensitive, open and strong"

 

[Yngvai X]

Somehow I dont think we are all following each other here. I know Im lost as to how anything you (ynwvai) said relates to what I was getting at. Nor do I know what Progged is calling stupid decisions. Seriously

Rising oil prices are capitolism at its finest, it is in fact global capitolism

[no sarcasm here] So I guess beings how capitolism rules we should all celebrate the rising cost of oil... hey Im psyched and looking forward to the next big inflation boom. The housing one worked out well.........

The oil companies produce a good, just like any other good. If you really don't like the high gas prices, don't buy it. Conserve your fuel, no one is forcing you to use it. If enough people really wanted to make a change, they could do it almost overnight and stop buying so much fucking gas. Decide what you value more, driving around in an unnecessarily large SUV or Hummer, or paying less for gas. If you really don't like spending so much on gas, support and donate to researchers that are looking into alternative fuel sources. In a capitalist market, these things are in your hands just as much as anyone else's, its just that most people are apathetic and are willing to pay the increased prices.

capitolism promotes greed, corruption, and using others for one's own gain, sorry these are all qualities in people I hate, theres even laws and commandments written against them....... but ya know.....

You mean the same greed, corruption, and dominance over people that plagued communist Russia, the Medieval Roman Catholic Church (who wrote those commandments), Communist China and Cuba, and scores of other socialist dictatorships? Corruption permeates all society, regardless of the economic and philosophical structure therein. Read my last post for further embellishment on that topic.

seems to me as a society of self proclaimed higher intellegence we could figure out a happy medium thats void of all these problems without insulting those that are obsessed with living by the capitolistic view or calling those that want a more even balance of the scale communists......

I disagree. Someone with high enough intelligence would realize that happy mediums don't work, because even though the rosy picture it tries to paint is bringing the less fortunate more fortune, it also cuts down the enabled and the gifted to a lower stature. I'm for a society that enables each individual the ability to better and further themselves, whether its the gifted creator and producer furthering his/her abilities, or the less able rising above where they started.

I have a hard time believing the internet has not hurt the music industry and many others.

I'm sure its a double edged sword, but to me, the pros vastly outweigh the cons (and I have personal experience with my own band to back up my beliefs in that).

I also think the DWI laws have hurt local entertainment industries....... I vote that it should be illegal for anyone sober to be on the roads after 9:00 at night.............. lol!

I understand this was made in sarcasm, but I'm going to refute it anyway... a drunk driver imposes a threat to the personal freedoms of everyone else on the road... any capitalist/individualist would recognize that as wrong.

 

[razoredge]

The recording industry has always made artists dance to their tune, may have even been worse at one time. I'm not inside so I just dont know but theres always been a bunch of BS involved, primarily due to sales which is a capitolistic issue. In fact werent many of the classical composers employed by royality and restrained by the scrutiny of the church ?

somewhere here we are not understanding that imeadiatly on the other side of capitolism does not click to communism. A happy medium does not mean sacrifice of individuality, it just means "stop the BS". A few good harsh to the point laws at the top would get the job done. I mean isnt it amazing whats legal and whats illegal in this world. But as I said that would only start wars, so we dance to the puppet masters anyhow. So much for individuality

 

[Yngvai X]

The recording industry has always made artists dance to their tune, may have even been worse at one time. I'm not inside so I just dont know but theres always been a bunch of BS involved, primarily due to sales which is a capitolistic issue. In fact werent many of the classical composers employed by royality and restrained by the scrutiny of the church ?

You think the BS would disappear if socialistic practices were put in place by the recording industry?

somewhere here we are not understanding that imeadiatly on the other side of capitolism does not click to communism. A happy medium does not mean sacrifice of individuality, it just means "stop the BS". A few good harsh to the point laws at the top would get the job done. I mean isnt it amazing whats legal and whats illegal in this world. But as I said that would only start wars, so we dance to the puppet masters anyhow. So much for individuality

Yes it does. You can't have opposing philosophies governing the same social or economic structure without it being filled with inconsistencies and contradictions, which over time will cause the system to break down.

The funny thing about people arguing for socialism is that I've yet to see anyone demonstrate to me how it would be implemented and work without sacrificing individuality. It usually comes in blanket statements such as "a few good harsh to the point laws at the top would get the job done." Oh really? And what laws would these be? WHO would decide what they would be? Where does "a few" stop and pure communism start?

 

[razoredge]

I disagree. Someone with high enough intelligence would realize that happy mediums don't work, because even though the rosy picture it tries to paint is bringing the less fortunate more fortune, it also cuts down the enabled and the gifted to a lower stature. I'm for a society that enables each individual the ability to better and further themselves, whether its the gifted creator and producer furthering his/her abilities, or the less able rising above where they started.

totally not in agreement there, I believe those running things, the puppet masters are the lamest men walking the earth. I believe if they werent doing what their "degrees" empower them to do they would still be hiding behind rocks waiting to club the hunter over the head as he drug his daily catch back to his fire. I dont think they could walk a mile in a real mans shoes. If thats a gift, I'm glad I didnt inherit it. Im firm in these beliefs, been exposed many times to many, their real abilities are a joke to me.

DWI laws ? yea is was a half hearted joke. Never much of a drinker, should get that out so people dont think its personal to me, never a DWI here, not that according to modern laws I should not be locked up awaiting the gallows. While DRUNK driving was a problem, I think the whole thing has gotten way out of control. Imposed on those with less or no problems and hardly managed to stop the real offenders, they'd just keep at it, licence or not. Many others were made an example of even though they were far from DRUNK. People are afraid to go out... they might start having a good time... heaven forbid. That has destroyed the number of available places for bands to set up and play. In the 80's I could name 15 places in a 30 mile radius, now theres 3 and they rarely have bands. We could blame some of this on DJ's and keroke.... scum! Not much money in bars in the country anymore, the few left are struggling, the urban areas are doing better because people can walk or take a cab. But even here inside the Albany/Schenectady area its nothing like it was in the 70's & 80's.

 

[razoredge]

hey I named my first law I would have done when exporting jobs and selling off industries began. Leave the country, put people out of work, dont be looking to sell your product here. #2 We do not sell property of the United States to people or companies from other countries... and this doesnt mean get a green card and come see us in 7 years.... Have a nice day! Would have been cut and dry with no need for big commitees "evaluation" and "investgating". No wasted money, none of the problems we are now confronted with. But it should have been done ? in the 70's. With the mess we have now... one more time... it would start wars, because while everyone hates America, they all want a piece of it.

so while people such as yourself make joke of us "commies" as if thats what we really are... you also fail to show how this capitolistic thing has worked well "for the people" thats ALL the people for those that forget. Your willing to admit its all corrupt and fucked up but would rather poke at those that want something without all the insantity by pegging us with the name communist........ I mean WTF?

Trust me Yngvai, it wont change so you've nothing to fear... from .... "commies" such as myself. And I certainly hope that you or anyone important to you or anybody for that matter, does not get screwed by the whole thing at some point in their lives. Because that would make them members of the weak and lazy... such as myself and so many others caught in the web

 

[Yngvai X]

totally not in agreement there, I believe those running things, the puppet masters are the lamest men walking the earth. I believe if they werent doing what their "degrees" empower them to do they would still be hiding behind rocks waiting to club the hunter over the head as he drug his daily catch back to his fire. I dont think they could walk a mile in a real mans shoes. If thats a gift, I'm glad I didnt inherit it. Im firm in these beliefs, been exposed many times to many, their real abilities are a joke to me.

Ok, how in the hell did you interpret "gifted and enabled" as meaning politicians??? I'm referring to the talented artists, thinkers, and creators. You know, the ones that further the progress of society.

hey I named my first law I would have done when exporting jobs and selling off industries began. Leave the country, put people out of work, dont be looking to sell your product here. #2 We do not sell property of the United States to people or companies from other countries... and this doesnt mean get a green card and come see us in 7 years.... Have a nice day! Would have been cut and dry with no need for big commitees "evaluation" and "investgating". No wasted money, none of the problems we are now confronted with. But it should have been done ? in the 70's. With the mess we have now... one more time... it would start wars, because while everyone hates America, they all want a piece of it.

So you're an isolationist. Great, well if you're gonna cut us off from the rest of the world, say goodbye to a lot of things the rest of the world gives us that we use every day. Metal guitarists, for one, would be fucked, all the big metal guitar companies are Japanese (ESP, Schecter, Ibanez), hope you don't mind not having tropical fruits like bananas in the winter, cause we gotta get that shit from south america. Stop drinking coffee too. Hope your kids don't like Pokemon either. I could go on.

so while people such as yourself make joke of us "commies" as if thats what we really are... you also fail to show how this capitolistic thing has worked well "for the people" thats ALL the people for those that forget. Your willing to admit its all corrupt and fucked up but would rather poke at those that want something without all the insantity by pegging us with the name communist........ I mean WTF?

Thats because there pretty much has never been a 100% capitalist society in history. The US has a mixed economy and always has.

 

[razoredge]

you dont catch on to what people are saying very well........ but you are great at the oh contraire thing

Ill let what I said and your responce about American companys abandoning our job market but not our store shelves go because your having a problem focusing on the big picture. Same goes with foreign interests setting up factories here... buying our assets. So lets try some questions.

do you really think the politicians are the leaders of this country or that they are the only "leaders" or the only people one could be talking about when they say running the show?
do you really think artists, thinkers, innovators reap the harvest of their work or just pennys on the dollar?
do you really think the only people that further the progress of society are these thinkers ?
do you really think the only way to be enabled is to be one of these "thinkers"
are you one of those suits that likes to show up on opening day and cut the ribbon like you got er done ?
was not the hunter draggin his catch enabled while the thinker was lying in wait with his club to steal and take credit for his hunt?

ever wonder where the wood for your guitar comes from ?
ever wonder where the wood for our homes comes from?
ever wonder if we could or did build or process these things here at one time and could still be doing so?
ever wonder where the steel once came from ?
do you know where it comes from now ?
who cares about pokemon or any such related thing? you talk about gasoline like we all use it unecessarilary and should go without but your worried about pokemon, bananas and coffee?
speaking of gasoline ? someone mentions oil and you only come up with gasoline, SUV's and Hummers? like no one with reasonable efficient cars simply needs to get to work....... or heat their modest homes or all the other products effected by oil ?
your worried about your guitars, yet indicate wastefulness of all Americans with gasoline because they need to drive to work.... when you are either unaware or ignoring that the wood for your guitar was grown here in the US......... shipped clear to Asia...... made into guitars........ then shipped all the way back here ? ....... wastefulness of oil ?
"rest of the things the rest of the world gives us" ????? any ideas since when ? any idea how they got to the point of being able to give us anything ? you have no idea what this country was during the 40's, 50's & 60's do you ?

isolationist ? you are a scare tactic person, call names like communist, isolationist, because it quickly paints the evil picture of Hitler, Stalin or starving jews and distracts from the equally ugly ghost like landscape of a once productive industrial United States. I already said it but you ignore, its part of the scare tactic thing.... I am a protectionist and it is the oldest natural instinct known to mankind, mammals and even reptiles and I refuse to hide in the closet denying instincts in the name of wanky assed "political correctness" or scare tactic, greed promoting, tunnel vision, hard core global capitolist that cares nothing for his own people