Grammy Awards

[skyrefuge]

I believe my statement is an accurate depiction of Pop, not a generalization.

You say Mitch is changing *his* argument, and then you claim history's first-ever non-disparaging use of the phrase "lowest common denominator" outside of a mathematical context? C'mon!

Actually through this whole thread I think one of the difficulties is that you've never really defined what you mean by "pop music". Is it purely a popularity-based definition for you? Or is it possible for an artist to play "pop music" and not be popular?

I've been getting a vague notion that popularity itself biases you negatively...though of course I think all of us music/metal snobs are affected to some degree by that. But is it actually useful to generalize? These days it's pretty easy to check out whatever music you want and judge it independent of its popularity, so your inverse-relationship rule doesn't seem too helpful. In the metal world, look at bands like Opeth, Mastodon, or even Dream Theater...they're quite popular, but far less "pop" or "lowest common denominator" than many other less-popular bands, so they break the rule. Or is metal exempted from that one?

If they were combining elite songwriters with the finest singers, to create the best possible art, I'd have no issue with it. However, are you prepared to argue that when Sony pairs Britney Spears with a team of well paid songwriters, high art is the goal?

Well, "the best possible art" is subjective. Wouldn't "interests the most people" be one reasonable metric to use to measure "the best possible art"? If the songwriters/producers know that vocal talent isn't especially integral to the whole equation they're working on, then it's smart of them to get someone who is (was!) nice to look at and knows how to dance!

My comment wasn't intended to link the artists with American Idol, only to speak to the preferences of our American Idol culture.

Yeah, my point was that those driving the American Idol culture are happy to promote the "talented"/"respectable" pop stars too (well, to be fair I guess they'd be happy to promote my toenail clippings if I gave 'em enough money for it!)

Neil

 

[Jasonic]

Well, if that's what it's going to take then I guess we won't be seeing you in Illinois anytime soon


Britt

ZING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Jasonic]

You just gave me the willies... Blink 182 couldn't wear a Ramones leather jacket or knee-hole pants therefore should never be mentioned in the same sentence.

Both write very simple pop songs.
The difference is when the RAMONES did it, there was more honest speed and aggression behind it.

The song structure and formula is the same, give or take a few chords.

 

[Jasonic]

And the same goes for metal, actually. A few years back I started to get really tired of most things metal. Although it's not necessarily "fake" as pop music, a lot of it lacks spontaneity...Bands started to actively try to create something "unique", mixing all sorts of styles, doing all sorts of crazy arrangements just to sound original... But it sounds so forced to me...

Agreed.
The two guilty parties which instantly come to mind are Primal Fear and Sonata Arctica. Their sounds are both now far crys from the sounds which made them a name in the first place.

 

[nomisofsiman]

Agreed.
The two guilty parties which instantly come to mind are Primal Fear and Sonata Arctica. Their sounds are both now far crys from the sounds which made them a name in the first place.

I still have to get into Sonata, but I know with Primal Fear I've always preferred the balls-on metal approach. I don't like (or rather not as much) when they include symphonic stuff in their music.

 

[General Zod]

You say Mitch is changing *his* argument...

I say that because it's true.

Earlier in the thread, he accused me of contradicting myself. When I demonstrated I wasn't, he quietly abandoned that accusation. He then claimed I said other genres were superior to Pop. I never even reference other genres in the statements he quoted.

...and then you claim history's first-ever non-disparaging use of the phrase "lowest common denominator" outside of a mathematical context? C'mon!

I never claim any such thing. I merely said my statement accurately depicted Pop music.

Actually through this whole thread I think one of the difficulties is that you've never really defined what you mean by "pop music".

Nor has anyone else.

I've been getting a vague notion that popularity itself biases you negatively...

The popularity of an artist has no bearing on how I feel about them, though I'm not sure how I'd demonstrate that.

But is it actually useful to generalize? These days it's pretty easy to check out whatever music you want and judge it independent of its popularity...

You're right, from now on I'll download every CD, from every artist. Wait... I have a better idea. I'll stick with downloading the CDs that are most likely to appeal to me and operate under the crazy notion that time isn't infinite.

...so your inverse-relationship rule doesn't seem too helpful.

I never called it a rule.

Well, "the best possible art" is subjective.

Agreed.

Wouldn't "interests the most people" be one reasonable metric to use to measure "the best possible art"?

If you believe there's a relationship between art and popularity, than you should use such a metric to gauge what is and what isn't art. Of course, this assumes you believe that creating "the best possible art" is the motivation of those who write songs that ultimately win Grammys.

Zod

 

[mitchgx]

Earlier in the thread, he accused me of contradicting myself. When I demonstrated I wasn't, he quietly abandoned that accusation.

Actually, you demonstrated no such thing. You just shifted your argument. I still think you contradicted yourself by taking issue with stereotypes of metal fans, and then going on to propulgate stereotypes of pop music.

He then claimed I said other genres were superior to Pop. I never even reference other genres in the statements he quoted.

I never claim any such thing. I merely said my statement accurately depicted Pop music.

Splitting hairs. You didn't explicitly compare pop to other genres, but in singling out pop music and generalizing about what you feel is wrong with it (all the while presenting your opinion as if it's objective fact), there's definitely an implication in your statements that pop is an inferior genre. You're not really responding to the spirit of the argument, you're just playing semantics.

Whatever. There's good and bad in any genre, and ultimately "pop" can be defined so widely that it seems pointless to attack it as an entire genre. Yep, there's some really shitty pop music out there. But you know what, there's also a lot of really shitty metal.

And ultimately it all just comes down to personal taste. There's no way you can rationally claim that Sabaton (just as a random example) is somehow "better" than Beyonce....although there's clearly people in this thread that would be ready to throw down if somebody tried to tell them Beyonce had more talent. Beyonce can sing (in the classical sense) *far* better than any member of Sabaton, and I'm going to go on a limb and say she can dance better and deliver a more versatile performance (for which she will put in countless hours of very physical effort). It's ok not to like the style of music she sings; I don't care for it myself - it truly ain't my thing. But to just blindly say she sucks is plainly ignorant. And yes, clueless. I'll also bet that Sabaton can lay down one of their fist-pumping anthemic tracks in a few hours, then go out and get trashed for the rest of the night. Meanwhile, the average Beyonce track likely requires days of meticulous arranging and production work. Personally, I'd rather listen to the Sabaton track any day of the week. But I at least recognize the work and talent that went into the Beyonce track. And I'll bet Beyonce and her producers love music and work as hard at what they're doing as any band that plays ProgPower.

 

[actordude]

I'm a bit late to this thread....but I have to ask - what the hell has happened to Bon Jovi?? Between them and Queensryche, I'm not sure who lost me faster over the last years.

Where o' where did the band that put out a brilliant self titled disc and even better sophmore effort go?? Where?? Where I ask??!! LOL......