You've got to be fucking kidding me...

General Zod

Ruler of Australia
May 1, 2001
14,192
36
48
New Jersey
www.facebook.com
We really need to revisit the Roman policy of throwing Christians to the lions.


FORT CAMPBELL, Kentucky (AP) -- Wearing vests covered in military patches, a band of motorcyclists rolls around the country from one soldier's funeral to another, cheering respectfully to overshadow jeers from church protesters.

They call themselves the Patriot Guard Riders, and they are more than 5,000 strong, forming to counter anti-gay protests held by the Rev. Fred Phelps at military funerals.

Phelps believes American deaths in Iraq are divine punishment for a country that he says harbors homosexuals. His protesters carry signs thanking God for so-called IEDs -- explosives that are a major killer of soldiers in Iraq.
The bikers shield the families of dead soldiers from the protesters, and overshadow the jeers with patriotic chants and a sea of red, white and blue flags.

"The most important thing we can do is let families know that the nation cares," said Don Woodrick, the group's Kentucky captain. "When a total stranger gets on a motorcycle in the middle of winter and drives 300 miles to hold a flag, that makes a powerful statement."

At least 14 states are considering laws aimed at the funeral protesters, who at a recent memorial service at Fort Campbell wrapped themselves in upside-down American flags. They danced and sang impromptu songs peppered with vulgarities that condemned homosexuals and soldiers.
The Patriot Guard was also there, waving up a ruckus of support for the families across the street. Community members came in the freezing rain to chant "U-S-A, U-S-A" alongside them.

"This is just the right thing to do. This is something America didn't do in the '70s," said Kurt Mayer, the group's national spokesman. "Whether we agree with why we're over there, these soldiers are dying to protect our freedoms."

Shirley Phelps-Roper, a daughter of Fred Phelps and an attorney for the Topeka, Kansas-based church, said neither state laws nor the Patriot Guard can silence their message that God killed the soldiers because they fought for a country that embraces homosexuals.

"The scriptures are crystal clear that when God sets out to punish a nation, it is with the sword. An IED is just a broken-up sword," Phelps-Roper said. "Since that is his weapon of choice, our forum of choice has got to be a dead soldier's funeral."

The church, Westboro Baptist Church, is not affiliated with a larger denomination and is made up mostly of Fred Phelps' extended family members.

During the 1990s, church members were known mostly for picketing the funerals of AIDS victims, and they have long been tracked as a hate group by the Montgomery, Alabama-based Southern Poverty Law Center's Intelligence Project.

The project's deputy director, Heidi Beirich, said other groups have tried to counter Phelps' message, but none has been as organized as the Patriot Guard.

"I'm not sure anybody has gone to this length to stand in solidarity," she said. "It's nice that these veterans and their supporters are trying to do something. I can't imagine anything worse, your loved one is killed in Iraq and you've got to deal with Fred Phelps."

Kentucky, home to sprawling Fort Campbell along the Tennessee line, was among the first states to attempt to deal with Phelps legislatively. Its House and Senate have each passed bills that would limit people from protesting within 300 feet of a funeral or memorial service. The Senate version would also keep protesters from being within earshot of grieving friends and family members.

Richard Wilbur, a retired police detective, said his Indiana Patriot Guard group only comes to funerals if invited by family. He said he has no problem with protests against the war but sees no place for objectors at a family's final goodbye to a soldier.

"No one deserves this," he said.
 
Obviously pathetic, but it doesn't surprise me at all. I think that Christianity with its focus on the afterlife inherently promotes a disregard for life on earth and with the gigantic stupidity of the zealot followers of that religion, this is the result. I fully agree with you, but in a world where critical thinking and true wisdom isn't promoted as something of relevance, we're stuck with such 2nd grade beliefs.
 
I don't think Zod is pissed at the bikers

Fred Phelps really needs his throat cut

I am 100% against the war in Iraq but upsetting dead soldiers families is fucking sick, the army is probably the only decent paid job a lot of those guys can get
 
heh I misinterpreted it then. Phelps deserving death is an old fact, and this article was focused on the bikers so I was confused :p
 
Opeth17 said:
Obviously pathetic, but it doesn't surprise me at all. I think that Christianity with its focus on the afterlife inherently promotes a disregard for life on earth and with the gigantic stupidity of the zealot followers of that religion, this is the result. I fully agree with you, but in a world where critical thinking and true wisdom isn't promoted as something of relevance, we're stuck with such 2nd grade beliefs.
Well said. This disregard for life on earth is also why the Christian right has historically not supported any sort of environmental protections, even though they're commanded to be good stewarts of the earth.

The ironic thing about the whole anti-gay thing is, there is only one passage, in either the Old or New Testament, that even speaks to the issue, and it's in the book of Leviticus. Christians don't follow any of the laws in the book of Leviticus, except for this one scripture.

Zod
 
General Zod said:
The ironic thing about the whole anti-gay thing is, there is only one passage, in either the Old or New Testament, that even speaks to the issue, and it's in the book of Leviticus. Christians don't follow any of the laws in the book of Leviticus, except for this one scripture.

Zod

Your information is wrong. There are many passages speaking against homosexuality. I know this because I did a large paper on it in an upper level anthropology class in colege. However, there are also several passages that pro-gay activists use in their defense. Just do an internet search and you'll find stuff for both sides.
 
The bible wasn't written by one person, so the fact that it has both pro- and anti-gay messages would make a lot of sense, would it not? Obviously, people are going to selectively use the passages that support their beliefs.

I think these bikers are taking a very respectable course of action against Phelps and his supporters. At the very least, they're not directly trying to silence people who's views they don't agree with.

That's my problem with people who say guys like Phelps should be killed. I know, most of you probably don't actually believe that, but seriously, the guy's entitled to his beliefs. If you disagree with his practices, that's wonderful and all, but he disagrees with yours. Why do you think this means he should be killed? Because the more popular belief is upheld by appeals to common sense, universal morality and shit like that? [/devil'sadvocate]
 
The worst part is that his entire extended family are all lawyers, and ever time somebody tries to take them on legally, the Phelps' just embarass the other side.

The only way to win agains Phelps is with time. When he dies, his beliefs will go with him. The extended family will slowly fade away.
 
Demilich said:
That's my problem with people who say guys like Phelps should be killed. I know, most of you probably don't actually believe that, but seriously, the guy's entitled to his beliefs. If you disagree with his practices, that's wonderful and all, but he disagrees with yours. Why do you think this means he should be killed? Because the more popular belief is upheld by appeals to common sense, universal morality and shit like that? [/devil'sadvocate]

maybe so

but I'd glady stab the cunt
 
What I don't get is how it is even possible to have such a complete and utter disregard for basic human feeling and emotion. Regardless of your beliefs, these asscunts can't protest somewhere else, they have to do it AS THEY LOWER YOUR CHILD INTO THE GROUND? I mean, fuck. If I was at one of these funerals, I would, in all honesty, STAB THE FUCK out of everyone in that protesting group and then proceed to PISS ON THEIR ROTTING CORPSES to return the disrespect they just showed to these families. (not really, but it'd be justified. Actually, I'm crazy as fuck when I'm pissed off, so I wouldn't make any guarantees.:loco: )

The utter ignorance that Christianity promotes and the complete disconnection from basic human feeling and reason that it guarantees is absolutely appalling. These zealots don't understand grief or death because they live in a fantasy world where they'll all be re-united with their dead for hundreds of years family members. Let's just fuck this planet and everything on it in the ass because it's just a gift to be used until we pass to the next world. Yeah, well you know what happens when you FUCK A STRANGER IN THE ASS!:loco:

Anyway, moderate and reasonable christians exclude themselves from this, but you're still deluded.
 
General Zod said:
My information is based on having read the bible on several occasions.

Zod


You read THE WHOLE THING!? And... you remember EVERY PASSAGE?

Edit: also, different translations of the Bible (there are tons, if you didn't notice) are translated by different people with different agendas. some of them are anti-gay, and translate in ways that play up any anti-gay sentiments they can find. just a thought.
 
General Zod said:
My information is based on having read the bible on several occasions.

Then go ahead and quote one, I'd be interested to see what you're referring to.

Zod

You have some sort of superiority complex or something. My information on said college paper came from interviewing 3 Christian preachers/ministers. I'm assuming they know a lot more about the Bible than you.

This is the verse you are talking about.

'You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination' (Leviticus 18:22; see also Leviticus 20:13).

Here's some other stuff that you can find quite a bit of discussion on. Just do an internet search. Trust me . . . all of these versus are used by Christians to denounce homosexuality. I included the discussion found at the website this is listed on.

The issue of homosexual behavior has had a lot of publicity of late. Homosexuals say that the slaves have been freed and women have been liberated, so gay rights are long overdue. Society does seem to be moving in that direction. Many homosexuals are "coming out" and openly declaring their homosexuality. In many parts of the western world, homosexual couples receive the same recognition as heterosexual couples with regard to social security benefits. Some church leaders are giving their blessing to homosexual relationships, homosexual church members and even homosexual ministers.
Many homosexuals' claim that...

  1. They are made that way.
  2. Homosexuality is of no harm to the participants or to anyone else.
  3. If it feels right to those involved, it is nobody else's business.
  4. Homosexual relationships and heterosexual relationships are equally valid. (Some even claim that the Bible condones homosexual relationships.)
Made that way?

Since other groups who have been discriminated against (such as women, blacks and the disabled) have been given equal opportunity, homosexuals claim that they, too, should be liberated. However, as one Christian expert has said...
"Gender, race and impairment all relate to what a person is, whereas homosexuality relates to what a person does."1
In contrast, homosexuals claim that scientific studies have shown that there is a biological basis for homosexuality.
Three main studies are cited by "gay rights" activists in support of their argument2—Hamer's X-chromosome research,3 LeVay's study of the hypothalamus,4 and Bailey and Pillard's study of identical twins who were homosexuals.5
In all three cases, the researchers had a vested interest in obtaining a certain outcome because they were homosexuals themselves. More importantly, their studies did not stand up to scientific scrutiny by other researchers. Also, "the media typically do not explain the methodological flaws in these studies, and they typically oversimplify the results".6 There is no reliable evidence to date that homosexual behavior is determined by a person's genes.
To the extent that biological or social factors may contribute to a person's bent toward homosexual behavior, this does not excuse it. Some people have a strong bent towards stealing or abuse of alcohol, but they still choose to engage or not engage in this behavior—the law rightly holds them accountable.
The final report of the Baptist Union of Western Australia (BUWA) Task Force on Human Sexuality states 'that a person becomes a homosexual ultimately by choosing to be involved in same-sex activity... This is in contrast to innate characteristics such as gender and ethnicity.'7 The report affirms that 'the Bible is clear that sin involves choice, and it unequivocally condemns homosexual behavior as sin'.7
The foundational teaching on marriage and sexual issues is found in Genesis chapters 1 and 2. When Jesus was questioned about marriage, He referred to these 2 chapters (Matthew 19:1-12; Mark 10:1-12). Genesis teaches us that 'male and female He created them' (Genesis 1:27). We were created to a plan—male and female complementing each other. That is, God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve, nor Madam and Eve.
Genesis also teaches that God instituted and designed marriage between a man and a woman (Genesis 2:18-25). There are a number of reasons why He did so.
  1. The complementary structure of the male and female anatomy is obviously designed for the normal husband-wife relationships. Clearly, design in human biology supports heterosexuality and contradicts homosexuality.
  2. The combination of male and female enables man (and the animals) to produce and nurture offspring as commanded in Genesis 1:28—'Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth'. This command is repeated to Noah after the Flood (Genesis 8:15-17). But procreation is not the only reason God made humans as sexual beings. The BUWA report affirms 'that sexual intimacy between husband and wife is good, and is intended by God for bonding, pleasure and procreation.'7
  3. Thirdly, God gave man and woman complementary roles in order to strengthen the family unit. Woman was to be the helper that man needed (Genesis 2:18). However, the woman's role as the helpmate is certainly not an inferior one. The enterprising God-fearing woman in Proverbs 31:10-31 is an inspiring role model.
No harm?

Andrew Lansdown points out that 'homosexual activity is notoriously disease-prone. In addition to diseases associated with heterosexual promiscuity, homosexual actions facilitate the transmission of anal herpes, hepatitis B, intestinal parasites, Kaposi's Sarcoma and AIDS.'1 Research on the life expectancy of a group of homosexual men in Canada in the early 1990s indicated that they could expect 8-21 years less lifespan than other men.8
Effect on others

Secular psychologists assure us that 'children raised in lesbian and gay households are similar to children raised in heterosexual households on characteristics such as intelligence, development, moral judgments, self-concepts, social competence and gender identity'.6 The humanists have, however, forgotten one important ingredient.
'Train up a child in the way he should go, and when he is old he will not depart from it' (Proverbs 22:6).
You cannot faithfully teach God's Word to your children while living a lifestyle specifically condemned by God's Word. All Christians are sinners forgiven by God's grace, but living in a homosexual relationship constitutes habitual, unrepented sin.
Nobody else's business?

Gay activists claim that homosexual activity is nobody's business other than those involved in the relationship. However, this is not true. God, our Designer and Creator, has authority over all aspects of our lives. He makes the rules, and He quite specifically forbids homosexual behavior.
'You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination' (Leviticus 18:22; see also Leviticus 20:13).
Disobedience of such a clear command indicates rejection of God's authority.
Some people argue that the Old Testament law (including Leviticus 18 and 20) was superseded with the coming of Christ. However, we should at least consider as binding those aspects of the law that are renewed in the New Testament. The teaching of Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13 was certainly reaffirmed in the New Testament.
Equally valid?

Some people claim that homosexual behavior was only condemned in the Bible because it was associated with idolatry (e.g. 1 Kings 14:24). However, it is clearly condemned apart from idolatry as well (e.g. Leviticus 18:22). It is described in Scripture as an unnatural, immoral perversion.
'For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another...' (Romans 1:26-27).
The Greek word arsenokoitai used in 1 Timothy 1:10 literally means 'men who sleep with men'. It is the same Greek word used for 'homosexual offender' in 1 Corinthians 6:9, variously translated as 'abusers of themselves with mankind' (KJV), homosexuals (NASB) or homosexual offender (NIV).
Some people claim that the sin involved in Sodom was rejecting hospitality customs or selfishness rather than homosexual behaviour. Certainly, the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah was great and their reported sin was grievous to God (Genesis 18:20). God sent angels to Sodom and...
'Now before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, both old and young, all the people from every quarter, surrounded the house. And they called to Lot and said to him, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us that we may have sex with them”' (Genesis 19:4-5).
"While it is true that the Hebrew word yadha does not necessarily mean 'to have sex with,' nonetheless in the context of Sodom and Gommorah, it clearly had this meaning. ...It means 'to know sexually' in this very chapter when Lot refers to his two daughters not having 'known' a man (19:8)."9 You would not offer virgins to appease a mob if their sin was lack of hospitality, but only if their desire was sexual.
Although Ezekiel 16:49 condemns Sodom for its selfishness with regard to poverty etc., this does not contradict its condemnation for homosexual practices. "The very next verse of Ezekiel (v. 50) calls their sin an "abomination". This is the same Hebrew word used to describe homosexual sins in Leviticus 18:22."10
It is also used in Scripture to describe such things like the practice of offering children to Moloch, but never such things as mere selfishness or lack of hospitality. Even in legal parlance, the word used to refer to one aspect of homosexual practice is 'sodomy'.
Another argument is that Jonathon and David were homosexuals as 'Jonathan “loved” David (1 Sam. 18:3), that Jonathan stripped in David's presence (18:4), [and] that they kissed each other (20:41)'.11
However, 'David's “love” for Jonathan was not sexual (erotic) but a friendship (philic) love. And Jonathan did not strip himself of all his clothes, but only of his armor and royal robe (1 Sam. 18:4).'12 Also, a kiss was a normal greeting in that day, such as when Judas kissed Jesus. In several cultures today, men normally greet each other with a kiss, too. Further, David's love for his wives, especially Bathsheba (2 Samuel 11), clearly reveals his heterosexual orientation.
Isaiah 56:3 states that eunuchs will not be excluded from God's presence ('my temple'), but practising homosexuals are not eunuchs. Eunuchs have no sexual relations at all.
Other scriptural arguments for homosexuality can similarly be easily refuted. It is clear that heterosexual marriage is the only form of marriage sanctioned in the Bible and that homosexual practice is always condemned.
Punishment

The Bible not only describes homosexual behavior as detestable, but it also calls for the punishment of those involved (Leviticus 20:13). Their unrepentant attitude caused God to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah (Genesis 19:24-25).
Just as homosexual conduct has been punished in the past, so it will also be punished by God in the future.
"...Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God" (1 Corinthians 6:9-10).
Hope

However, there is hope for the homosexual. God forgives and cleanses a person who repents and turns from their sin, including the sin of homosexual behavior (1 Corinthians 6:11). As well as forgiveness, God's grace brings with it the power to live a life that is pleasing to God (Romans 6:6-7). If repentance and reform are genuine, prior homosexual actions should not be a bar to church membership or ministry, as all Christians are reformed sinners.
'Liberal' churches espouse tolerance of homosexual behavior in the name of 'love'. They plug for the acceptance of homosexual conduct as normal, 'because they can't help it'. They are not only wrong about the latter, but they are actually not being at all loving towards homosexuals, because, contrary to the Bible, they reduce the homosexual person to the level of an animal, driven by instinct. In removing moral responsibility from the person, they dehumanize them, whereas the Bible says we are made in the image of God (Genesis 1:26-27), with the power of moral choice.
Furthermore, the gospel proclaims liberation from the bondage of sin, including homosexual sin, whereas the 'liberals' tell the homosexual that they cannot help it, and they can't help them either, so they will accept them as they are! However, many a person has been gloriously rescued from the bondage of homosexual sin (and other sin) by the power of the Holy Spirit, but only Bible-believing Christians can offer such hope.13
Conclusion

As with all moral issues, our beliefs about our origin determine our attitude. If we believe that we arose from slime by a combination of random chance events and the struggle for survival, it is understandable to say that there is no higher authority, and we can make our own rules. However, if there is a loving God who planned us and gave commands for us to follow, then we must do so. God has set forth His standards in the Bible, beginning with the foundational teaching in the book of Genesis.
More on-line information on this topic

  • What about gays needs to change? Answer
    It may not be what you think.
  • What does the Bible say about same sex marriages? Answer
  • Can a gay or lesbian person go to heaven? Answer
  • What should be the attitude of the church toward homosexuals and homosexuality? Answer
  • Read stories from those who have struggled with homosexuality - GO
References and notes

  1. Lansdown, A., The 'Rights' of Homosexuals, Life News, p. 1, February 1995.
  2. Randall, D.A., Bill Loader on Homosexuality, Life News, p. 4, September 1996.
  3. Hamer, D.H. et.al., A linkage between DNA markers on the X chromosome and male sexual orientation, Science 261(5119):321–327, 1993.
  4. Levay, S., The Sexual Brain, MIT Press, Cambridge, Massachusetts, USA, 1993 (as quoted in ref. 6, pp. 367, 665).
  5. Bailey, J.M. and Pillard, R.C., A genetic study of male sexual orientation, General Psychiatry 48(12):1089–1096, 1991.
  6. Matlin, M.W., Psychology, 3rd ed., Harcourt Brace College Publishers, Fort Worth, Texas, USA, p. 366, 1999.
  7. Excerpts from the Baptist Union of WA document on human sexuality, Life News, October 1997. (Final Report of the Task Force on Human Sexuality, Baptist Union of Western Australia, July 1997).
  8. Hogg, RS, et al., Modelling the impact of HIV disease on mortality in gay men. International Journal of Epidemiology 26(3):657–61, 1997.
  9. Geisler, N.L., Christian Ethics, Michigan, USA, Baker Books, p. 261, 1989.
  10. Ref. 9, p. 262.
  11. Ref. 9, p. 259.
  12. Ref. 9, p. 265.
  13. See, for example, the testimonies of people rescued from homosexual sin at [SIZE=-2]www.exodus-international.org/testimonials_left_homosexuality.shtml[/SIZE], 28 October 2003.
Author: Ann Lamont , Answers in Genesis.