How to deal with amateur clients...
- Thread starter ShipwreckSoundWorks
- Start date
smy1
Member
Of course.
I know way too many engineers who do only one type of sound cause it's all they know and like. While very often an a-typical sound might be better for a band to create a distinctiveness. Unfortunately many engineers (especially those who play in local bands themselves) have the tendency to think they know what the musicians want, when in reality they overemphasize technical thinking and do what they want themselves.
If the musicians don't know what they want, then it's a different ballgame of course ...
To the OP:
Those "cute little pedals" might be integral to their sound. I play differently when I play my custom guitar through an Engl Savage head set to a "modern metal" tone than when I play my Telecaster through an Orange head with 2 maxed out fuzz boxes and a delay plugged in. It's a completely different sound and feel.
So let them use whatever they want to use. It's their record. If you have good reason to try other options, make them try other options. If they want to attend the mastering session, let them as long as they promise to be quiet the whole time until it's revision time - since you need to do critical listening. I was at my first album's mastering session and sat in the back for 8h bored out of my mind. I never attended a session again.
Mikaël-ange
Member
- Nov 7, 2008
- 2,368
- 1
- 36
One thing I learned not so long ago is to never cut an idea before have eared what it sound like.
Seriously, you will waste a great amount of time arguing with the band wrong/right thing before having ear anything.
Record a short section with their pedals, if it's good, good; if not move on...
For the attempt session: I think it's way better to have your client with you during mixing, because you can go more "crazy" and push the envelope more.
When you are alone I have the tendency to play it safe...
And if you are in big studio and want to work alone for a moment, you can empty the room really quick using main.
Seriously, you will waste a great amount of time arguing with the band wrong/right thing before having ear anything.
Record a short section with their pedals, if it's good, good; if not move on...
For the attempt session: I think it's way better to have your client with you during mixing, because you can go more "crazy" and push the envelope more.
When you are alone I have the tendency to play it safe...
And if you are in big studio and want to work alone for a moment, you can empty the room really quick using main.
Good I would rather not deal with the headache of someone so arrogant/ignorant. However, in a real world situation, as demonstrated by my behavior as of 8 hours ago, I would NEVER tell a client to fuck off with their cute little pedals.
I simply suggested I show them both, and that settled that. Pedals gone.
Just as an update, I'll post this in the original too,
They ended up using the pedals one time, and I did show them comparisons of what I could do as opposed to what they could do, and they ditched the pedals.
But ultimately I agree with you wholeheartedly, and I've recorded things that do call for different sounds and different feel and sounds that need to uphold the integrity of what their trying to get across. We are talking genericore here, and it doesn't get too much more cut and paste really, at least, cut and paste is what they want.
In fact this reminds of a project where I used only a pedal delay module by BOSS. Sounded great, was a lot more atmospheric than I could have done for them/would have WANTED to do for them, but stepping out of the way that time left me with this unique sounding guitar track that was just stadium like fuck and massive too, and it was essential to their sound.
Nowhere did I feel I needed to. I know these clients, I know their skill (or lack there of in this case) and I know what type of clients they are going to be for the rest of this project.
It was in NO way solely because of them wanting to use their pedals. I go see my clients live if I have the opportunity, and I did this time around. They do lack skill, they lack understanding of basic timing structures and musical concepts.
Don't make assumptions, that was a little more than annoying.
You didn't provide me or anyone else on this thread with this information. Am I supposed to do some research on you and your sessions, before I can call bullshit on the statements you've made? Am I to be held responsible for wrong assumptions, based on information you've failed to give?
Leaving the control freakish productions aside, the point of my rant wasn't the ego but shear sonics. EVERY FUCKIN ENGINEER who says that they can easily replicate the analog signal chain of fuzz driven roaring amp "with plugins in few minutes" is fuckin' clueless in my books. No matter how much tips, tricks and psychological war you conduct on your clients, and what you made them think.
And this is leaving aside the emotional impact the musicians give WHILE they are playing.. You can't make a magic take from a DI track, monitored through some amp sim.
On a side note, IMO, of course your way sounds better A/B. You have refined it from session to session. A/B it with some random rig introduced to your chain, of course things will sound different.. Did it occure to you, that you could have propably help'd them refine THEIR sound, instead of just proving them that your way is better out the box and they should do things your way..
Yes, I'm an idealist.
E: Oh, and yes. Nice job editing the first post. Really classy.
You taking the big hint of amateurism from the bands interrest to use pedals instead plugins, is a HUGE hint to me that the band isn't the only one who doesn't have their shit together.
Exactly, I didn't provide info, meaning you had nothing to base that assumption off of.
I'm not sure how you're getting any of this from me, to be honest. There's plenty of other people in this thread who agreed with me, and understood the frustration, I'm not the only one to be annoyed over this.
I explained already, I've used pedals before.
I don't think you can call out my entire business based on the fact that I didn't want to use pedals for this guitar tracking session. That in NO way implies that I don't have my shit together. I wouldn't be getting paid for what I deliver if I didn't have my shit together. The band chose, not me.
First post was edited so people could see the update, and yes, I'll admit it, I was embarrassed by the ranty nature of the first post. But people who have been here remember that.
Besides, the reasonable guitarist suggested I just throw a tremolo effect on one of the guitars, and no, the delay pedal did not sound good. I tried a few things before I threw it out the window, but what I sat there and created for them did end up sounding better.
Point being, I don't think there's a damn thing wrong with what I've done here, nor is there a problem with me preferring my methods.
I'm taking control in a way that leads to an efficient, successful, clean recording. That's what AE's do. RedDog is of the same opinion, and so are many other people in this thread.
What the fuck? Psychological war? Dude, I showed them A, I showed them how I could HELP A (their pedals), and I showed them B. THEY chose B. That's not a fucking psychological war. Cool your shit man.
SocialNumb
Damn Christians!
DOING THIS does not get your point ACROSS any better. Just saying.
Continue your sissy fight, I'm out.
Continue your sissy fight, I'm out.
I wasn't implying that you're a hack. I merely implied that I see huge problems in your attitude towards bands, their wishes and production techniques in general. Based on your words and oppinions.
95% of this, and other forums alike consist of hobbyist kids with prosumer gear who work with bedroom hobbyist musicians. I would take it with a huge pile of salt with the 'other "AE" agreeing with you'.
I don't care what the end result sounded like, or if the band was happy with what you gave them. That was never my point. I called you up for having a retarded attitude. They could have brought you a Zoom 606 and I'd still think the same. You ranted from the preconseption that the band doesn't know shit and is gonna fuck up your ways of working..
I'm glad the story got a happy ending. That still doesn't change my oppinion on your starting attitude.
But it makes me so much happier.
E: And thank god I just moved that 10m3 pile of rocks and dirt equipped only with two pints of excelent wheatbeer and a shovel. Otherwise I might feel pretty girly about arguing with someone on the internet.
We can't argue taste. Or the preference of one's methods of working. There are some people who use their own spunk as face cream. They might think that it's the single most awesome thing since J-tittyfucking-Christ. I can still think that's just fuck'd up, flawonoids or not.
For me, statements like "I can easily replicate their cute fuzz and delay pedals and whatnot's with plugins in few minutes", give you a first class-ticket to the category: "amateur fuckwit", as the OP put it. To me, person saying something like that is A. Deaf. B. Incompetent C. Has the most fuck'd up monitoring known to man. Or all of the above.
After that, it kinda makes me see red, that someone saying something like this calls his clients incompetent.
We can agree to disagree. In the end we all just want to make fine records and music. Just wanted to point out the OP might want to check his attitude a wee bit.
Well if that was your goal, being abrasive isn't the best way to handle it. The way you handle things makes people want to retaliate in a negative way.
Good luck with your future productions.
It's hell of a tough job being abrasive when you keep editing off / ignoring those parts in your answers.
RedDog
Humanoid typhoon
The StabbinCabin
Member
Everything is based on the communication and the chemistry between the band and the Engineer,but of course Rhetoric is a strong part of it.
You should make them understand that 99% a real amp is much better from a cheap pedal,of course sometimes pedal can sound amazing,but it's not so often in a recording studio for this type of music we are interested.
Maybe you can record 1 minute with a real amp,and 1 minute with their pedal,send them the 2 versions and do not tell them which one features the pedal or the amp,so they can choose
You should make them understand that 99% a real amp is much better from a cheap pedal,of course sometimes pedal can sound amazing,but it's not so often in a recording studio for this type of music we are interested.
Maybe you can record 1 minute with a real amp,and 1 minute with their pedal,send them the 2 versions and do not tell them which one features the pedal or the amp,so they can choose
Well, Hitler did use Telefunkkens. And he got his message through without plugins quite well.
