musictheory

causeddevil

Member
Apr 7, 2006
63
1
8
osterburg, germany
hey james,

just wondering how deep you´re into musictheory-
give us some thoughts on this topic

do you think it´s necessary? or just helpful? what is the best way to learn it?
etc.

hope your doing well...
greetings from germany
 
im not james, but Im gonna say a little theory never hurt anybody..

Belive me, if you learn it you will have a lot more control and freedom over your playing.
 
i think it's very helpful but i don't think players should start out right away with too much emphasis on it..... i taught theory to myself after a few years of just playing by ear..
 
rules to break rules?
more control brings more freedom?
oxymorons.

theres about 10 zillion examples we could start naming on how this way of thought DOESNT apply to some of the best song writers or musicians ever. prime example: go look at any guitar shop and see how many guys wish they could play the blues.

its always the fine line between technical killing the heart/guts. just how metal is today. over technical, bad song writing, no heart and hyper-isolated recordings that sound like it just came out of a robots butt.

if youre going to bust the rules and do something new, bust them for real.
 
rules to break rules?
more control brings more freedom?
oxymorons.

theres about 10 zillion examples we could start naming on how this way of thought DOESNT apply to some of the best song writers or musicians ever. prime example: go look at any guitar shop and see how many guys wish they could play the blues.

its always the fine line between technical killing the heart/guts. just how metal is today. over technical, bad song writing, no heart and hyper-isolated recordings that sound like it just came out of a robots butt.

if youre going to bust the rules and do something new, bust them for real.


Yeah, but you should also see the amount of guys who go into a guitar shop, and can shred the face off a clock, but you ask them what they were doing and they've got no idea, no way of explaining it... I'd much rather personally have a great knowledge of theory to apply to my guitar playing rather than just playing with ignorance...
 
rules to break rules?
more control brings more freedom?
oxymorons.

theres about 10 zillion examples we could start naming on how this way of thought DOESNT apply to some of the best song writers or musicians ever. prime example: go look at any guitar shop and see how many guys wish they could play the blues.

its always the fine line between technical killing the heart/guts. just how metal is today. over technical, bad song writing, no heart and hyper-isolated recordings that sound like it just came out of a robots butt.

if youre going to bust the rules and do something new, bust them for real.
sorry dude... you are incorrect. knowing theory does not "kill the heart/guts" of creativity..... and all your "10 zillion" examples are not in fact examples of why you're right.. they are examples of why what i am about to say is the right way to view this issue.

you can divide players into 4 basic groups:

1. Those that know some or a lot of theory but are not intrinsically very musical....theory in the hands of an intrinsically non-musical person will result in a "robotic" type player, usually with poor vibrato and poor phrasing no matter how fast and accurately they can "shred", and they usually write fairly uninspired songs. This is the group of players that lead to the myth that "theory kills creativity".

2. Those that don't know any theory at all but are intrinsically very musical people....a guitar in the hands of a very intrinsically musical person who knows not one bit of theory can and will result in a player that writes moving songs and who may be capable of incredible soloing, usually with great vibrato and inspired prhasing.. certainly intrinsically musical people do not need theory.... and this is the group from which your "10 Zillion examples" come. i was in this group for about 3 years, and it's a perfectly fine place to be.

3. Those that don't know theory and are not instrinsically musical.... a non-musical person with zero theory is pretty much dead in the water. this is the group of players that we all know... these guys may love music and guitar, but they play for years and never display any noticable improvment... hey, if they enjoy it.. awesome, i'm all for it. Playing music can be enjoyable for anyone.

4. Very musical people that have an understanding of theory.... an instrinsically musical person with a facile knowledge of theory is very similar to a person from group 2, he simply has an additional toolbox that allows him to access more tonalities and musical vibes than he ever would have stumbled upon in many years of insprired improvising/writing.

True story....

i had a buddy, Matt, back in the late 80's... he was half British and half American, and we were at about the same level of skill with our playing.. so we enjoyed jamming together.... i had been playing for 3 years already with no knowledge of theory at all, and he had none either. Matt was very "anti" theory, certain that it would "destroy" his creativity.... i, on the other hand, was determined to learn theory and set out on a course to teach myself as much as i could. i moved away for a while and dropped out of contact with Matt right at the beginning of that "mission", but moved back after less than a year... during which time i had taught myself a lot about the basic modes, the modes of the harmonic minor scale, as well as the modes of the melodic minor scale... and a great deal about extended chords, their construction, their relationship to the modes.. and a solid understanding of the circle of 5ths/4ths and harmony in general.

the point? i had remembered Matt as a good player and good improviser... my equal in every way, but one who always had something that i couldn't define that was similar in everything he played... i had noticed the same thing in my own playing.... and when i got back together with Matt i knew what it was immediately: he pretty much always... ALWAYS... played Pentaonic Minor and Natural Minor, and would throw in liberal b5's. he had no idea what he was playing, but no matter what he played over, or where he played on the neck, he always played in those tonalities.... and i had done the same.

the result of me learning theory was that i had more tonalities to draw upon... my improvising did not suffer one single bit. in fact, it got better as my ear became accustomed to other tonalities. i liken it to being a good or great painter who only has ever had the primary colors to work with.... and then being taught to create new colors by understanding how to combine the basic colors... will that painter lose the heart/guts of their artistry? i think not. i think their paintings will become more interesting... better.

bottom line... if you are a truly musical person you will be able to create great music both with theory and without theory. But with it you will venture into territory you never would have otherwise... at least not as fully as you will be able to with a more complete understanding of music. if you are not a very musical person then theory will at least allow you to play with some level of competancy, though it won't help much to lead you to the level of inspired artistry that very musical persons can enjoy with or without it.

to suggest that the creative muse can be imprisoned by giving it more doors to go through is ridiculous.... it is however a good lie to tell yourself if you feel you need an excuse to get out of the percieved difficulty of learning theory. You're either creative or you're not... theory will neither create nor destroy creativity, so learn it, or don't.... but please don't get on a soapbox here and preach that it will "ruin" one's playing, that is one of the worst myths in music.
 
:worship:

:D Great example! I'm the same, I've got a couple of mates who I jam with, who can probably play faster and better than I can, however I'll play my bit, and they'll be amazed and ask how I knew to play what I played, and that it would fit... It's because I have a basic knowledge of theory and harmony, and they don't, they're stuck in the pentatonic rut as well, or the harmonic minor at best... I'll just play something simple, such as a Hirojoshi scale over their static minor chord, and their mind implodes... All I'm really doing though is a variation of the minor pentatonic which they use all the time...

The painter illustration is a good one, and for those who don't want to be bound by all the theory 'rules', a good illustration would be like if you wanted to rob a bank, what better way than to work there and learn how all the systems and security works, and then you have a better, more effective way of 'breaking in'. This is the same, you can either play random chromatic notes and call it whatever you want (artistic feedom?), or you can use the rules you've learned to play modaly and chromatically and call it 'jazz' or 'atonal tech-metal' (Ron Jarzombek :kickass: ), but doing it much more effectively...
 
Is there anything out there that anyone would recommend as a complete and easy to understand as possible guide?

I've been eyeing this: http://www.guitarcollege.com/tftr.htm

The 6 CD set.
What do you guys think of it?
I wouldn't listen while driving so that can be ruled out.
I'm more likely to listen rather than reading 'cause that would lead to sleepy time for me.

Thoughts? Opinions?
 
You can find better stuff online for free, like at IBreatheMusic.com or WholeNote.com - there are also DVD-book sets made by Fretboard Logic that seem to work well for a lot of people I know. My first recommendation would be to use books but if that's ruled out then you'll have a harder time.

I'd also recommend picking up Mick Goodrick's book The Advancing Guitarist so that when you know the basics well you can learn to apply them in interesting ways as you go along.

Jeff
 
sorry dude... you are incorrect. knowing theory does not "kill the heart/guts" of creativity..... and all your "10 zillion" examples are not in fact examples of why you're right.. they are examples of why what i am about to say is the right way to view this issue.

you can divide players into 4 basic groups:

1. Those that know some or a lot of theory but are not intrinsically very musical....theory in the hands of an intrinsically non-musical person will result in a "robotic" type player, usually with poor vibrato and poor phrasing no matter how fast and accurately they can "shred", and they usually write fairly uninspired songs. This is the group of players that lead to the myth that "theory kills creativity".

2. Those that don't know any theory at all but are intrinsically very musical people....a guitar in the hands of a very intrinsically musical person who knows not one bit of theory can and will result in a player that writes moving songs and who may be capable of incredible soloing, usually with great vibrato and inspired prhasing.. certainly intrinsically musical people do not need theory.... and this is the group from which your "10 Zillion examples" come. i was in this group for about 3 years, and it's a perfectly fine place to be.

3. Those that don't know theory and are not instrinsically musical.... a non-musical person with zero theory is pretty much dead in the water. this is the group of players that we all know... these guys may love music and guitar, but they play for years and never display any noticable improvment... hey, if they enjoy it.. awesome, i'm all for it. Playing music can be enjoyable for anyone.

4. Very musical people that have an understanding of theory.... an instrinsically musical person with a facile knowledge of theory is very similar to a person from group 2, he simply has an additional toolbox that allows him to access more tonalities and musical vibes than he ever would have stumbled upon in many years of insprired improvising/writing.

True story....

i had a buddy, Matt, back in the late 80's... he was half British and half American, and we were at about the same level of skill with our playing.. so we enjoyed jamming together.... i had been playing for 3 years already with no knowledge of theory at all, and he had none either. Matt was very "anti" theory, certain that it would "destroy" his creativity.... i, on the other hand, was determined to learn theory and set out on a course to teach myself as much as i could. i moved away for a while and dropped out of contact with Matt right at the beginning of that "mission", but moved back after less than a year... during which time i had taught myself a lot about the basic modes, the modes of the harmonic minor scale, as well as the modes of the melodic minor scale... and a great deal about extended chords, their construction, their relationship to the modes.. and a solid understanding of the circle of 5ths/4ths and harmony in general.

the point? i had remembered Matt as a good player and good improviser... my equal in every way, but one who always had something that i couldn't define that was similar in everything he played... i had noticed the same thing in my own playing.... and when i got back together with Matt i knew what it was immediately: he pretty much always... ALWAYS... played Pentaonic Minor and Natural Minor, and would throw in liberal b5's. he had no idea what he was playing, but no matter what he played over, or where he played on the neck, he always played in those tonalities.... and i had done the same.

the result of me learning theory was that i had more tonalities to draw upon... my improvising did not suffer one single bit. in fact, it got better as my ear became accustomed to other tonalities. i liken it to being a good or great painter who only has ever had the primary colors to work with.... and then being taught to create new colors by understanding how to combine the basic colors... will that painter lose the heart/guts of their artistry? i think not. i think their paintings will become more interesting... better.

bottom line... if you are a truly musical person you will be able to create great music both with theory and without theory. But with it you will venture into territory you never would have otherwise... at least not as fully as you will be able to with a more complete understanding of music. if you are not a very musical person then theory will at least allow you to play with some level of competancy, though it won't help much to lead you to the level of inspired artistry that very musical persons can enjoy with or without it.

to suggest that the creative muse can be imprisoned by giving it more doors to go through is ridiculous.... it is however a good lie to tell yourself if you feel you need an excuse to get out of the percieved difficulty of learning theory. You're either creative or you're not... theory will neither create nor destroy creativity, so learn it, or don't.... but please don't get on a soapbox here and preach that it will "ruin" one's playing, that is one of the worst myths in music.


I am glad you stepped up and said that stuff, people need more positive influence in the arts, and being who you are I aplaud you for that.