Steve, how'd you get buried on Human?
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Nothinggod
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- Mar 10, 2004
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You know I never really noticed that about Human before, but you are right. Hippy is way back in the mix there. It doesn't help that he uses a chorus/flange sound on most of the tracks which wipes out half of his bottom mids. Also a lot of that frequency is taken up by the guitars. So unless he is doing something that is contrapunctual to the guitars you only really notice it when you hear these faint little buzzing basslines occasionally. Also in 1991 not many people were using protools and most digital recording was done using Cubase on Atari ST's. The majority of people were still using reel to reel tape for recording, which I am guessing is what they used to record Human. I could be wrong, but it sounds pretty analogue to me. Usually when you had a lot of guitar on records producers would tend to sacrifice bass in the mix for the sake of bandwidth. That might be what happened here. It would be interesting to know if that is the case or if I am completely off track.
NESFantasy
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I forget exactly which interview it was (I believe something recent), but Steve said that he didn't know why he was nearly non-existent in the mix. He said you'd have to ask Paul Masvidal and Sean Reinert, as they were at the mixing and he wasn't.
That's interesting to mention and this was a topic on here a while back (like a year ago exactly). The only reason I could come up with is because Ricks are tough to mix (but even this seems like an inadequate answer.) Scott Burns is a top notch producer for sure (probably my favorite next to MBs Bill Metoyer) so that makes it even weirder. But if NESfantasy is right and Masvidal and Reinert did the mixing mostly then it make some sense that the drums and guitars are the most audible in the final product.
Nothinggod
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Yeah, I don't know about the Rickenbaker factor there. I have heard some pretty well produced Rickenbacker sounds from records from before and up to 1991. I think the most likely reason is that Masvidal and Reinert put it back in the mix in order to preserve the bandwidth in the guitars and kick drum which could be why the bass sound is not only quiet but also sounds "scooped" frequency-wise.
The bass drum has that definite "click" with some low end. The mid-range is too "in your face" for my taste. (The 5-channel amplifier in my car doesn't like this one so much.) Perhaps a little too much compression too. If the money was there I'd say a 24 bit remaster should be in the works, or at very least a remixing. A great example of the classic Rickenbacker 4001/4003 recorded well as I've mentioned before is Deep Purple "Machine Head". Sounds like a Rick.
Nothinggod
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Yeah I wouldn't hold my breath waiting. It's not like we are even going to see When Man and Machine Collide anytime soon
NESFantasy
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Nothinggod said:
You know, I've seen the title written both as that and as "When Machine and Man Collide". Some people have said that everyone gets it wrong when they do it the former way and that it should be the latter. However, I can't find a SET name on Empty Words. The page itself says your way, but in an interview, one band member said it the other way.
Does anyone here know anything about James Murpheys Death Tribute?
There were updates on the progress up untill a year ago then suddenly
Chucks/James's site stopped updates for a year or so now. Does anyone know if SDG was involved with it? I would assume so but..
There were updates on the progress up untill a year ago then suddenly
Chucks/James's site stopped updates for a year or so now. Does anyone know if SDG was involved with it? I would assume so but..
Nothinggod
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- Mar 10, 2004
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NESFantasy said:
At this point I probably wouldn't care if it was called 'When Dog Takes a Poop'. I am just wondering if we will ever have the privilege of hearing it. I'm not goading Hippy to comment on what I am guessing is probably an horrific shitfight though. It just came to mind.
I'm not sure if Hippy played on the Death tribute thing, I think more likely no, from what I have read. I think he might have a better idea than I do, however.
HippieOfDoom
The 13th Monkey
Alright...you guys really know how to awaken the grumpy bear...! I read thru this and I see topics getting answered on their own and taking on a whole new life. Never amazes me what you guys find interesting. But don't take any annoyance with that comment, I'm actually pretty humbled that these things matter to yous guys.
You know, I never really made a posh life for myself out of the session work I've been privleged to take part in. So to me, not only in retrospect but during the time too, I view it as musical art and nothing more. Nothing more as far as importance to our geological existence, but important to me personally as an "artist" and as someone who is emotionally tied to my works. Unfortunately this doesn't allow me to just walk away of a session and let it be. I'm guilty of caring too much I think, maybe that brings a bit of passion to the big picture, but it also leads to some heartache. In 1991 I was young and hungry and ambitious and obnoxious. That album (Death Human) might have some of my most adventurous bass lines ever, albiet - not the best, but most meandering. I planned on finishing the session with Chuck, Sean and Paul in the studio with Scott Burns. But a Sadus tour supporting Morbid Angel was booked and I had to leave right after the bass tracking was completed. What happened during the mixdown I can't say, except for the obvious fact of no bass in the mix. They FedEx'ed the final mix to me at a point in Germany on the tour and when I put the tape in the stereo I thought it was a prank to rile me up. But then soon realized that the "woofing out guitars, clicky ass bass drums and no bass mix" was for real, I threw the cassette out on to the train tracks. It obviously upset me because I was awaiting what would perhaps be a better representation of death metal bass lines out of the ordinary than anything else out there. It was evident that no one else in the studio, including Scott, Chuck, Sean and Paul thought to have my back. When we reached the end of the Morbid Angel tour, in Heathrow airport we made a group call to Scott Burns after waaaaay too many beers, dark-ass heavy-ass England beers. All the Sadus guys and even a drunk airplane mechanic posing as a bad Lemmy all passed the phone and in turn told Scott what they thought of the bad, no bass mix. It pissed him off so much it eventually got back to Chuck. So needless to say I didn't talk to either of those guys for about a year and a half until the fateful call to come in and play on the next album rang during a Dark Hall session. Not only did the offer to come back again come with promises of atonement, but somehow (ask Alex Webster, hehehe...) the infamous "Steve pissed off at the mix tape and getting buried" story led to some underground passing around of a mix of just me and Sean, just bass and drums from Human circulating. Furthermore, I won't get into this much - because obviously it won't lead to anything. But trust me when I say that some of me and Chuck's last phone conversations included ideas on getting the master tapes and remixing it for the purpose of raising the bass level. That will never happen now.
Well that story got a little more detail than I thought I should divulge. But what the hell...? You guys seem like friendly, cerebrally gifted, supporters of bass struggles in metal. Maybe you'll appreciate that painful drive down a hurricane ravaged memory highway.
So to fill in a few more blanks: In 1991 there was almost no digital recording going on yet. We did that album all on 2" Otari 24 track reel-to-reel analog tape. There was only talk of digital coming around in the form of ADAT. I used the black Ric on the whole album, but this time no chorus or flange, only a bit of my own compression (which would make you think it would be even easier to bring out the bass with less poppy transients).
Also I did not play on James' tribute thing. Haven't talked to him in a long time so I have no idea why that shit is taking so long.
Lastly, the Control Denied album that we all want to hear will most likely never see the light of day. It was squashed for the lamest reasons, and I'm done defending that whole thing. It's a waste of good songs and a discredit to the hard struggling work Chuck put forth to redeem what he thought was an attempt that came up short in the first album. That's just how I feel, and I realize when these comments go public I'll have to stand behind them. But I don't think I said anything disrespectful, and afterall, it's only my opinion.
But you guys know that you'll always get my honest opinions and my truthful perspective when I go into story mode on this forum, like in this thread. I hope you enjoyed the explanation on getting fucked for Human. It forever changed the way I am during a mixdown. I can't say it was the last time I got fucked in a mix, unfortunately there were a few more albums to come that ended up with too low bass volume. But it enlightned my awareness of making sure there is strong ground to stand on. This includes; flawless performance, versatile yet mean-ass tone, and bass lines worth a shit to fight for.
Good pay, bad pay, no pay...all in all, the money gets spent too quickly to matter. What stays is the feeling of acomplishment, feeling proud to contribute something no one else could have done better, or feelings of let down and heartache. Remember, what metters to you now will still matter years down the road. And no one will feel the dissapointment more than you if you get talked out of what you feel to be right. Just always give good reason to be relevant, and don't set yourself up for future let downs.
Take it from me.
SDG
You know, I never really made a posh life for myself out of the session work I've been privleged to take part in. So to me, not only in retrospect but during the time too, I view it as musical art and nothing more. Nothing more as far as importance to our geological existence, but important to me personally as an "artist" and as someone who is emotionally tied to my works. Unfortunately this doesn't allow me to just walk away of a session and let it be. I'm guilty of caring too much I think, maybe that brings a bit of passion to the big picture, but it also leads to some heartache. In 1991 I was young and hungry and ambitious and obnoxious. That album (Death Human) might have some of my most adventurous bass lines ever, albiet - not the best, but most meandering. I planned on finishing the session with Chuck, Sean and Paul in the studio with Scott Burns. But a Sadus tour supporting Morbid Angel was booked and I had to leave right after the bass tracking was completed. What happened during the mixdown I can't say, except for the obvious fact of no bass in the mix. They FedEx'ed the final mix to me at a point in Germany on the tour and when I put the tape in the stereo I thought it was a prank to rile me up. But then soon realized that the "woofing out guitars, clicky ass bass drums and no bass mix" was for real, I threw the cassette out on to the train tracks. It obviously upset me because I was awaiting what would perhaps be a better representation of death metal bass lines out of the ordinary than anything else out there. It was evident that no one else in the studio, including Scott, Chuck, Sean and Paul thought to have my back. When we reached the end of the Morbid Angel tour, in Heathrow airport we made a group call to Scott Burns after waaaaay too many beers, dark-ass heavy-ass England beers. All the Sadus guys and even a drunk airplane mechanic posing as a bad Lemmy all passed the phone and in turn told Scott what they thought of the bad, no bass mix. It pissed him off so much it eventually got back to Chuck. So needless to say I didn't talk to either of those guys for about a year and a half until the fateful call to come in and play on the next album rang during a Dark Hall session. Not only did the offer to come back again come with promises of atonement, but somehow (ask Alex Webster, hehehe...) the infamous "Steve pissed off at the mix tape and getting buried" story led to some underground passing around of a mix of just me and Sean, just bass and drums from Human circulating. Furthermore, I won't get into this much - because obviously it won't lead to anything. But trust me when I say that some of me and Chuck's last phone conversations included ideas on getting the master tapes and remixing it for the purpose of raising the bass level. That will never happen now.
Well that story got a little more detail than I thought I should divulge. But what the hell...? You guys seem like friendly, cerebrally gifted, supporters of bass struggles in metal. Maybe you'll appreciate that painful drive down a hurricane ravaged memory highway.
So to fill in a few more blanks: In 1991 there was almost no digital recording going on yet. We did that album all on 2" Otari 24 track reel-to-reel analog tape. There was only talk of digital coming around in the form of ADAT. I used the black Ric on the whole album, but this time no chorus or flange, only a bit of my own compression (which would make you think it would be even easier to bring out the bass with less poppy transients).
Also I did not play on James' tribute thing. Haven't talked to him in a long time so I have no idea why that shit is taking so long.
Lastly, the Control Denied album that we all want to hear will most likely never see the light of day. It was squashed for the lamest reasons, and I'm done defending that whole thing. It's a waste of good songs and a discredit to the hard struggling work Chuck put forth to redeem what he thought was an attempt that came up short in the first album. That's just how I feel, and I realize when these comments go public I'll have to stand behind them. But I don't think I said anything disrespectful, and afterall, it's only my opinion.
But you guys know that you'll always get my honest opinions and my truthful perspective when I go into story mode on this forum, like in this thread. I hope you enjoyed the explanation on getting fucked for Human. It forever changed the way I am during a mixdown. I can't say it was the last time I got fucked in a mix, unfortunately there were a few more albums to come that ended up with too low bass volume. But it enlightned my awareness of making sure there is strong ground to stand on. This includes; flawless performance, versatile yet mean-ass tone, and bass lines worth a shit to fight for.
Good pay, bad pay, no pay...all in all, the money gets spent too quickly to matter. What stays is the feeling of acomplishment, feeling proud to contribute something no one else could have done better, or feelings of let down and heartache. Remember, what metters to you now will still matter years down the road. And no one will feel the dissapointment more than you if you get talked out of what you feel to be right. Just always give good reason to be relevant, and don't set yourself up for future let downs.
Take it from me.
SDG
Travis
Bassist
NESFantasy
Member
- Jul 19, 2004
- 171
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Wow, that was certainly more than I had ever expected. And quite detailed! As they said, thank you for sharing all that. It was rather enlightening.
Gawen
Night! You beautiful
WOW! Thank you Steve. But I think that more important is what you wrote about "session-life", great advices! Thank you so much
From what I can hear of the bass on the album, which isn't much, the Ric sounded rediculously amazing. It's a fuckin' shame it got mixed down so much, seeing as how amazing it sounded as well as the basslines being so damn exciting.HippieOfDoom said:
What bugs me about some mixes is the lack of bass. For example, on "The Gathering", the bass is buried in the mix (from what I remember of the album)...it's yet again a shame because some of the basslines were pretty adventurous as well, from what I remember of it. At least they ended up mixing you a lot louder live, from a couple of the bootlegs I have from 99-03. Your ESP cuts through like butter live.
Yeah, its always a shame to see amazing basslines get cut out of the mix:/
If the bass would stop being burried id think metal could progress alot more and become a less repetative genre with more bands having a unique sound rather like one sounding like the other, which isnt to uncommon today.
And interesting to hear the story
If the bass would stop being burried id think metal could progress alot more and become a less repetative genre with more bands having a unique sound rather like one sounding like the other, which isnt to uncommon today.
And interesting to hear the story
.
And I always wondered if the lines Hippie played live for songs like D.N.R. are the ones he played on the album or not. Care to confirm?
A former friend of mine has a copy of the tape of just bass and drums and the playing is awesome. it's so raw though that it sounded kind of funny.
