Zeitgeist - The Movie!!!

Yet the Germans were very innovative under socialism, possibly by force, possibly by pride, possibly by higher level of intellegence. You tell me.

SJX, I think you are entirely wrong about America or the world heading anyway near socialism. If we get socialized healthcare it will come in the form of a tax and wont change a thing of our capitolist structure, it in fact will only feed the already overly greedy health care industry, nothing can be finer than to get in the back pocket of American beaurocracy. Besides that even if its a campain issue... it... like so many other campaigne issues will never see the light of day. The extremely powerful American health insurance industry has way to much to loose.

Then many things about past patriotic, proud America are under fire and in rapid decline. Trade Unions protecting workers and large retirement pools have all been beaten hard the past 3 decades and mostly frowned upon by anyone outside of those ideals or unaware of what was good about standing together. All of which is easily understandable and acceptable because of the corruption or perversion of the origional ideas that took place.

With this global capitolism in full tilt nothing is going to stop it.
 
In a capitalistic environment, you invent/create something worthwhile and patent it, then reap the benefits. This notion helps drive entrepreneurs, independent businesses, research and development, etc. In essence, the carrot at the end of the stick helps push technology forward, and I would argue that simply creating something to help better all mankind is not the driving force behind most people's motivations.

Not sure what makes you think it always works that way.

many times those innovators are employed by a company and have no rights to their idea... though they may have made a decent salary they do not reap the profits.

in other instances it is the people that put up the money to see a product to production that reap the reward not the mind behind it.

I do know there are many law offices that specialize in patent rights and patents are hard to come by....... and of course these lawyers make a great living..........
 
Not sure what makes you think it always works that way.

many times those innovators are employed by a company and have no rights to their idea... though they may have made a decent salary they do not reap the profits.

in other instances it is the people that put up the money to see a product to production that reap the reward not the mind behind it.

I do know there are many law offices that specialize in patent rights and patents are hard to come by....... and of course these lawyers make a great living..........

Yep! My bassist's brother worked for Chrysler, and helped create some tools, and devices for their cars in the safety department. He told me he got a bonus for $2500.00 and that was it.
 
In a capitalistic environment, you invent/create something worthwhile and patent it, then reap the benefits. This notion helps drive entrepreneurs, independent businesses, research and development, etc. In essence, the carrot at the end of the stick helps push technology forward, and I would argue that simply creating something to help better all mankind is not the driving force behind most people's motivations.


The flip side of the coin with socialism/communism, is that when you create something great, it now belongs to the people, everyone equally(in theory) or which ever govt. is in power, as the case may be. So while yes, I do believe some would still aspire for great things, I think this type of system only contributes to workers feeling alienated from their job and the product they create. Essentially, why should they give a fuck about going above and beyond the call of duty without any real motivation.


The end result is that industry and technology become stagnant over time. The Soviet Union has been trying to dig themselves out of this type of situation for quite some time.


Of course socialized healthcare will be paid for in the form of taxes, that's the way it is done in Canada. Also, I may be wrong but, wouldn't the government regulate the costs and all of those things? The healthcare field would just turn into a government jobs just like the US Postal Service, they would regulate how much tax is paid according to how much it would cost them to provide supplies, equipment, and employee salaries.

I seriously think that when it comes to scientists and engineers most would be willing to go the distance even in a socialistic society. Those types of jobs are those in which people get into out of self interest and the desire to move technology forward. Besides, even in a communistic society they would still make nice money, it is not like they will be living in poverty or anything. They just won't be filthy rich, as hopefully nobody would be.

On the idea of alienation. I feel that most people in our capitalistic society are alienated now. I don't feel that there will be very much alienation at all in a communistic society. As a matter of fact, the main point of Marx's argument is that alienation is created through capitalism, so it is funny that you brought it up. Marx says that innately all humans like to create things with their hands. This brings them the feeling of satisfaction as they can create something that others desire enough to trade with them for. But in our industrialized society most work is repititious and requires no personal creativity, you just do things in the step by step way you are told to do them. This is the very reason why some people, like me, want to go to school in order to get a job they know they will enjoy doing.

Also, don't forget about what I said earlier about how there is plenty of middle ground between the extremeties of capitalism and communism. Communism doesn't necessarily mean that there has to be absolutely NO free enterprise, it could just be more regulated. This would allow companies to make some extra money for doing good; however, it would regulate them enough to where they cannot monopolize or do any "dirty" business in which they all do today. The extra money they would gain could be nice and at the same time not be so much that it hurts everybody else in society.
 
Yep! My bassist's brother worked for Chrysler, and helped create some tools, and devices for their cars in the safety department. He told me he got a bonus for $2500.00 and that was it.

My dad works for a huge company up here in Canada. They manufacture cold-weather starting products for cars in cold climates (something we, and a lot of Europeans and those in the Northern States, desperately need).

He's been there for 30 years, and hates missing work, and rarely does. His annual Christmas bonus (which I might add, he did NOT get this year)? A ten dollar gift certificate for Safeway. I'm sorry, even if you're just a machinist, but if you put in 30 years anywhere, I think it's sad - almost insulting - to get a Christmas "bonus" like that.

@Proulxski: I agree, man, while the debate has definitely been heated, it's been a good one to watch and join.
 
A ten dollar gift certificate for Safeway.
Thats because Industrial N.A. is biting the dust, due to global capitolism and corporate explotation of cheap labor from "developing countries"....... everything would be fine with these capitolistic pigs if we N.A's were just willing to work for 80 cents an hour and live in on site housing. It would be great, we could revert back to the way things were in that other great period in American history.... you know.... the first industrial revolution.... sweat shops, work camps, 12 hour days, child labor, whips, clubs and a whole 3 pennies a week.... then what was it that happened after a few decades of that ? What was it called ? Something like the Great Depression ? How in the hell did we ever get through that brick wall ? Oh yea, I remember........... WAR! Then we did things like build the interstates, reservoirs/damns, bridges, skyscrapers, the once great American automotive and locomotive industrys. Everything will be fine so long as the puppet masters can keep stimulating something - anything to support the massive population of the world through consumerism which puts food on the table for the masses and makes great sums of money for those that need it most............
 
Of course socialized healthcare will be paid for in the form of taxes, that's the way it is done in Canada. Also, I may be wrong but, wouldn't the government regulate the costs and all of those things? The healthcare field would just turn into a government jobs just like the US Postal Service, they would regulate how much tax is paid according to how much it would cost them to provide supplies, equipment, and employee salaries.

But what if I don't want money from *my* paycheck being used to fund anyone else's healthcare but my own? And then where do I go to get the care I want? Government sanctioned health practitioners? What if the guy is a quack? What if I prefer a more holistic/natural approach to healthcare? What do I do if my government appointed health practitioner has no idea about holistic/natural remedies? If healthcare is regulated, so is who the government is appointing to practice it. There would be no freedom of choice in medicine, only what the government gives you. You want free healthcare, go to a socialist nation. You want the best, go to the nation with a free market.

I seriously think that when it comes to scientists and engineers most would be willing to go the distance even in a socialistic society. Those types of jobs are those in which people get into out of self interest and the desire to move technology forward.

Who's gonna give them the finances to go the distance? You think science labs and research centers grow on trees? What if the government favors one set of researchers, but not another? Who is deciding what research team gets the funding (and how much of it) and which one gets shafted? And where is this money coming from? Taxes, presumably, and what if I don't want my hard earned money going to a research team that I don't care about? When you have private investors donating their money to research they care about, or a research team is able to raise their own money for it, the best and most productive results happen.

Besides, even in a communistic society they would still make nice money, it is not like they will be living in poverty or anything. They just won't be filthy rich, as hopefully nobody would be.

Lets apply this logic of curtailing one's earnings to areas that aren't monetary. By your reason (or lack thereof), no one should be allowed to excel at anything. There should be no outstanding artists, athletes, scholars, thinkers, workers, etc. Everyone should be average. The same. No one greater or less than another. But wait, these aren't the same as being incredibly wealthy? Yes they most certainly are, because they are all the product of someone who has put in work, and effort, and has earned their rewards, be it the acquisition of a vast amount knowledge or of money. You can't apply a different set of values depending on what the person is earning. Unless you want, of course, to look like a raging hypocrite.

On the idea of alienation. I feel that most people in our capitalistic society are alienated now. I don't feel that there will be very much alienation at all in a communistic society. As a matter of fact, the main point of Marx's argument is that alienation is created through capitalism, so it is funny that you brought it up. Marx says that innately all humans like to create things with their hands. This brings them the feeling of satisfaction as they can create something that others desire enough to trade with them for. But in our industrialized society most work is repititious and requires no personal creativity, you just do things in the step by step way you are told to do them. This is the very reason why some people, like me, want to go to school in order to get a job they know they will enjoy doing.

Tell me how this would change under communism as opposed to a free market. If someone doesn't like their job in a free market, they can leave and pursue another line of work that is more fulfilling. If an employer is at all interested in keeping his employees happy (read: productive and doing their job well) he will stimulate them. Under communism, you wouldn't have this freedom.

Also, don't forget about what I said earlier about how there is plenty of middle ground between the extremeties of capitalism and communism. Communism doesn't necessarily mean that there has to be absolutely NO free enterprise, it could just be more regulated. This would allow companies to make some extra money for doing good; however, it would regulate them enough to where they cannot monopolize or do any "dirty" business in which they all do today. The extra money they would gain could be nice and at the same time not be so much that it hurts everybody else in society.

The entire reason monopolies even exist is BECAUSE OF REGULATIONS. In an entirely free market economy it would be IMPOSSIBLE to have a monopoly on anything, because with enough competition no one could corner the market on anything. You wanna start regulating trade and business? Say hi to monopolization. Remember, the US is not an entirely free market, we fucked it up by imposing regulations and now you have monopolies and lobbyists, and such. If you want to understand more about the workings of this, go on youtube and search for Milton Friedman.
 
what on earth makes anyone think the health care system in this country would change one bit if it went "sociolized"

with our current system, everyone pays the same or is at the same value for thier insurance, only varying by chosen or offered coverage. Its one great big pool and it does pay for someone elses healthcare the only thing thats been going on in the past 10 or more years is companies are paying less % of the coverage, the cost has skyrocketed and those at the top writing the bills got even richer. In addition to that, more mandatory tests and routines have been placed in the path of "being cured" futher increasing the cost of healthcare and profits for those involved.

Sorry but I find all those questions to be little more than a distraction where everyone goes in circles until they are dizzy and forget about the root of the problem.

Deregulation - Isnt that what Regan did, which was quickly followed by a big flurry of white collar crimes and "big money" becoming a bigger non stopable machine ? The idea of free enterprise as healthy competition is a joke in todays world when it takes huge sums of money to get anything rolling and where do you get the money ? And how long will these people wait for a return ? How many fortunes have been sqandered trying to "compete" and in the end millions of dollars in buildings and equipment sit vacant and are eventually tore down, scraped, like it doesnt even matter. Yet those that go to work everyday and would like a little more in the pay check to keep up with inflation and the bills are told theres just no money to go around, by the way heres your annual 50 cent per hour raise, please relay this plus another 25 to the insurance companies.

distractions
 
I know I'm a few pages behind in this thread, but...
1. Degrading though I may be, it only appears degrading when the target takes critical assessment very personally. My posts do not aim to insult, the focus, while somewhat condescending (how can I help it when the defendants are so blatantly ignorant?), no the focus is to clarify.
Ken... If you called me feeble-minded, I'd take it personally. Actually, I'd take a LOT of what you say very personally. It's one thing to disagree with people, but you're saying some serious shit here.

That being said, I enjoyed the movie. It was one-sided, but hey, it made me think. Thanks for the link.
 
what on earth makes anyone think the health care system in this country would change one bit if it went "sociolized"

with our current system, everyone pays the same or is at the same value for thier insurance, only varying by chosen or offered coverage. Its one great big pool and it does pay for someone elses healthcare the only thing thats been going on in the past 10 or more years is companies are paying less % of the coverage, the cost has skyrocketed and those at the top writing the bills got even richer. In addition to that, more mandatory tests and routines have been placed in the path of "being cured" futher increasing the cost of healthcare and profits for those involved.

Sorry but I find all those questions to be little more than a distraction where everyone goes in circles until they are dizzy and forget about the root of the problem.

Deregulation - Isnt that what Regan did, which was quickly followed by a big flurry of white collar crimes and "big money" becoming a bigger non stopable machine ? The idea of free enterprise as healthy competition is a joke in todays world when it takes huge sums of money to get anything rolling and where do you get the money ? And how long will these people wait for a return ? How many fortunes have been sqandered trying to "compete" and in the end millions of dollars in buildings and equipment sit vacant and are eventually tore down, scraped, like it doesnt even matter. Yet those that go to work everyday and would like a little more in the pay check to keep up with inflation and the bills are told theres just no money to go around, by the way heres your annual 50 cent per hour raise, please relay this plus another 25 to the insurance companies.

distractions


Good explanation.

The middle class is stuck with all the shit in life. The few rich in the upper class who are lucky to be there have no problem with our healthcare system. They can choose the best doctors/facilities or whomever they want and not worry in the least about the cost. The second most populated class, the low class, don't even come close to having the money to pay for the ever increasing cost of healthcare; but it's okay for them since they kinda have their own little socialized healthcare called "medicare", they even have a "socialized" food stamp card that gets replenished every month. They save so much from the free food and healthcare they get. To keep these benefits they keep living in a not so great house/apartment and work their Burger King job without ever wanting to move to higher position. They then go out with all the money they save and buy themselves Escalades. The middle class, whom the biggest percentage of Americans are, is stuck trying to barely pay for their own healthcare with their 40 or more hour a week paychecks which have already had huge amounts of taxes taken out so that the low class folks can reap the free benefits. They then have to use the rest of their money to pay their inflating bills and buy their OWN groceries. That doesn't leave them with enough to buy an Escalade of their own? The rich don't care since they pay the same amount of taxes as the middle class with their infinately better paychecks. What is left is a system that already has some socialized healthcare; however, it is only for those who are mostly purposefully lazy so that they can take advantage of the middle class, therefore, it is an unfair form of socialized healthcare. So really the only people who are against ACTUAL socialized healthcare are the few that can afford the insane costs and want to be able to be choosy about it.

Razoredge hit it right on the nail when talking about distractions. It is definately true that along with healthcare costs in general rising, doctors seem to tend to run more and more tests and go through more and more procedures. They do more than is needed because the more tests they run, the higher the bill; the more visits it takes to get things done, the more bills there are. One of the things that is good about socialized healthcare is that doctors cannot make more money with the ease of merely racking in more tests and visits; rather, maybe they could get paid more on being a better doctor in general. Just because a doctor runs a billion tests and has you visit multiple times just to make "sure" doesn't mean that they are a good doctor. That really makes them seem like not so great doctors really, don't you think?

With all due respect, Matt, healthcare quality will not necessarily go down due to socialized healthcare. You have too many assumptions of how a communist/socialized society could work. There are intricacies that would probably be put into place. For example, maybe families and individuals will still be able to choose which doctor they wish to see; likewise, people would regularly be asked to rate their doctors/hospitals/clinics. Since the medical field would be a part of government, the government would be able to pay more to the doctors/hospitals/clinics that have the most people coming to their respective institutions/facilities. Those institutions/facilities that don't have quite as many people would still be paid decently; however, they would be encouraged to do better and draw in more patients in order to make a little bit of extra money. Questionarres and evaluations could help regulate individual doctors and employees that do something unethical/wrong/bad so that they get demoted/fired from their facilities without anything negative happening to their offices as a whole. You see, this is a good example of communism working well with some capitalistic influence. This is also a good example of earlier when I stated that capitalism HAS to come before communism. A society has to go through capitalism to best understand it. Once it is understood a good communist society can be built with some capitalistic influences. No communist society in history has yet to even come close to doing it this way, they only tried to forcefully make societies devote to extreme communism.

On the note said about alienation being a much bigger thing in a communist society, I have a rebuttal. Most people cannot afford to do these things that make them happy, the costs of living are just too much to allow them to do this. Only a small percentage of musicians can afford to live off of music. Of this small percentage is an extremely small percentage that actually make very good money, these of course being those that are mainstream/radio friendly artists that are slaves to an even richer record label. This is just one of many examples of how it really isn't logical for a person to just quit their job and try and make a living off of something that gives them personal fulfillment.
 
SXJ - you only have a piece of the picture though. One reason... not the only.... but one of the large contributing reasons for all the extra precautions in evaluating a symptom has to do with all the mal-practice law suits the past 3+ decades. We all know who has benefited most from them... insurance companies & lawyers. So many regulations have been placed in effect, there are all these guidelines for a mandatory routine that must be followed. Also hospitols or doctors bill X amount and the insurance companies tell them how much they will pay, so somewhere there is a price list so to speak that us common folk are unaware of.

Then, the wealthy pay huge taxs, dont get me wrong I still dont have a single sorrowful emotion for them but the income tax bracket % goes up as income goes up. Then on their giant mansions - I couldnt pay their annual property taxs if the house was given to me, free of mortage. I still dont feel sorry, thats a double edged sword as well, if a "high rent" subdivision goes in and these people dont blink an eye at the price they pay for the property, house and taxs, suddenly everybody else that has lived megerly for years around them is now assessed based on the money these people freely throw around. I really dont want to get going on the past 15-20 years of realestate bullshit. Its been great for the builders, schools and municipalities, and thousands of people have "made a living" building them, lets just leave it at that. Its a double edged sword, but its been a primary method at least in this country that the government and bank has stimulated the economy and provided "jobs" for thousands.

Theres a few more details to medicare, I dont know them well but. Welfare, yea its a problem, but right theres another issue, wheres all the friggin jobs for the highly saturated areas ? Working poor, thats the lower class and poverty level, they dont recieve welfare, they also dont recieve competitive wages for their contribution to society and this is not just the people that work at "BurgerKing" this country is loaded with jobs in the under 22,000 bracket, in fact wages for those jobs has not moved in well over a decade. There is government provided health insurance, that is inexpensive. I dont know how it works for what annual income level but I know its there.... as it damn well should be, considering whats been going down in this country since the 80's. Some companys that employ at these income levels do help some with the insurance and this saves otherwise humble people from having to crawl to DSS to get help for sick children for example. Medicare also helps our retired generations that broke thier ass their whole life only to find out they would otherwise be priced out of LIVING.

The growing spred in incomes between the work force in this country is the biggest problem, in my opinion, and there are hundreds of contributing factors for this happening.

Just a few things I wanted to point out because I dont like to always paint in black and red giving a one sided or coimpletely bias view. There is some blues, greens, yellers and oranges in there as well. :)
 
well anyone who passes anything off without first doing the research themselves is no worse than someone who presents a conclusion without a whole bunch of evidence.

go research the topics in the film, some you will find are quite real, others just don't add up, others you may not be able to find information on to draw your own conclusions, but its the person who allows others to draw conclusions for them that is lost.
 
I dont think one needs to do much research to figure out the systems are full of shit. But they sure do a good job of leading the blind. Both sides of all issues are full of propaganda and self serving interests, only sheep would prefer that there was only one side with no resistance
 
^ or just pay attention to the world around you, with eyes wide open, shaking your head at all the friggin madness.........
ever notice its always two ends of the extremes, with no one meeting in the middle and implimenting resolutions or at least trying..... crazy I say, just crazy! I like Russ Perot (sp) statement, you know the guy that was remembered for saying "you people" " or "here comes that sucking sound", not remembered for saying, "if somethings not working well try something else, if that doesnt work, try another method". (something along those lines, not an exact qoute)..... perfect example of the "distractions" I always talk about, what a big BS distraction, because someone says "you people" or because they were a hard ass to work for, well you know what built this world ? iron willed, hard asses, not a bunch of mamsie pansies, sitting around saying "we cant do this because these people over here will be offended, and we cant do that becuse those people over there will be offended"..... so decades go by and nothing ever changes... but we are a politically correct society of sheep, and the mice are building nests and pissing and shitting in our clock..... the world according to my wicked edgyness.... lol! It aint all bad