What about tomboys? I know several female tomboys that typically hang out with only guys...... It's part of being a tomboy.
Floor Jansen wants only men in her band
- Thread starter adaher
- Start date
That's an issue of your interests. There are certain things I like to do that I can only hang out with guys for. I'd love to get girls involved, but they don't tend to be as interested.
But I don't think most tomboys have a dislike of hanging out with women in general. And there's a difference between not being interested in hanging out with women and actively refusing to work with other women. We just seem to disagree on whether that's understandable sexism. But it's still sexism. And I don't really understand it or respect it. It's a maturity issue. Fortunately, rock stars don't have to be mature, they can pay people to handle adult things for them if they make enough money doing what they do.
Not saying this is Floor's motive, Glenn provided motives that are also plausible. I just object to the defense of females being catty towards other females as a general policy. It's kind of a soft bigotry of low expectations. A man that didn't get along with men would be looked at as a very odd person.
But I don't think most tomboys have a dislike of hanging out with women in general. And there's a difference between not being interested in hanging out with women and actively refusing to work with other women. We just seem to disagree on whether that's understandable sexism. But it's still sexism. And I don't really understand it or respect it. It's a maturity issue. Fortunately, rock stars don't have to be mature, they can pay people to handle adult things for them if they make enough money doing what they do.
Not saying this is Floor's motive, Glenn provided motives that are also plausible. I just object to the defense of females being catty towards other females as a general policy. It's kind of a soft bigotry of low expectations. A man that didn't get along with men would be looked at as a very odd person.
AMBR
Metal Grandma
(NOTE: The following post is full of generalizations which of course do not apply to everyone.)
Not ridiculous at all. Men and women usually think and act very differently. They often have very different interests. This is a proven fact and it's why sports cater mostly to men and romance books and chick flicks cater mostly to women. OBVIOUSLY there are plenty of women who like sports I'm merely pointing out the general tendency for women and men to have different attitudes and interests.
I certainly have plenty of female friends, but frankly I have always had far more male friends. I like metal, sports and many other activities where there are typically more men involved them women. Here's an example of why I usually prefer to hang out with men:
When my kids were younger, my husband and I would go to parties at other couples' houses who also had kids. The women would sit in the kitchen and sip wine, and talk. The conversation would always start on the kids; where they should go to school, what activities they should be involved in, on and on. It was a pressured filled situation where I always felt like I was an inadequate parent or something.
Next as the wine was consumed, inevitably the conversation turned into what was wrong with the men. "My husband is such an asshole because..." Then it digressed into the depth of the female friendships. "I love you like a sister because..." Totally emo. I hated it.
Meanwhile, the guys were out back, standing around the keg playing horse shoes or pool or something. I was always trying to sneak out and hang with the guys. Honestly, until I expanded my metal circle, I had very few female friends.
I know you'll pick this apart endlessly, but I still say there are things about men and women that are generally different and it's not at all unusual to prefer to hang, or work with one gender or another.
Present company excepted, I don't much like women either. Some women can work together and tour together extensively and get on fine; Floor strikes me as the alpha female who cannot. Better she structure the band with people with whom she gets along in such close quarters, rather than deal with the nearly inevitable drama and blowup later.
booB
Señor Member
Based on the way this thread has gone, it's obvious that what Floor SHOULD have done would be to simply screen out all the women during the audition process. No one could bitch at her, then.
Purveyor Of Evil
Heavy Metal, INC.
Pellaz
Tigron of Immanion
nomisofsiman
Member
What she said.
Seriously though, the way men and women think are usually very different. Some people get along best of their same sex, some don't. For me and a lot of people I know, usually they have more friends of the opposite sex. It doesn't make you sexist, it's just a fact that you get along with a different type of person moreso than others. Bottom line.
OrbWeaver
BECAUSE FALCONER
+1
Also, this is old news. She's already got a lineup.
from http://www.revampmusic.com/band/ :
The team:
Floor Jansen: songwriter
/singer
Joost van den Broek: songwriter/producer/keyboardist/arranger for album
Waldemar Sorychta: songwriter/producer/ guitarist and bass player on album
Koen Herfst: drummer on album (www.koenherfst.com)
Jaap Melman: bass player live
Ruben Wijga: keyboard player live
Jord Otto: guitar player live
Arjan Rijnen: guitar player live
Matthias Landes: drummer live
/thread
J-Dubya 777
It NEVER ends
Just think how much bitching would be done on this forum if band leaders had to follow EEOC laws and guidelines... I'm pretty much of the opinion "who cares?" I can't believe this thread has gone 3 pages already. Get over it! It's her band, let her hire who she wants to perform and make music with. I don't get why it's such a big deal to some people. As far as it being a publicity stunt, I highly doubt it. At least she didn't go the Timo T route. For that we can ALL be thankful! :Smokedev:
What makes you think discrimination laws don't apply to bands? They even apply if you want to get a roommate for your apartment, and it's "your" apartment.
Not saying it does apply to bands, but the "it's mine!" defense doesn't fly. It doesn't apply to any business you guys decide to start, it sure as hell doesn't apply to your own home. In the US, the only discrimination you can get away with is in choosing friends and a spouse.
Again, I'm not particularly interested in the legal aspects of Floor's requirement, but I do think I need to correct some misconceptions about whether or not you can discriminate if it's YOUR whatever. Sorry, but people have been using that defense and losing in court since the Civil Rights Act in 1964. Hopefully no one here will ever be that bigoted or stupid when starting their own businesses or renting their own homes.
Not saying it does apply to bands, but the "it's mine!" defense doesn't fly. It doesn't apply to any business you guys decide to start, it sure as hell doesn't apply to your own home. In the US, the only discrimination you can get away with is in choosing friends and a spouse.
Again, I'm not particularly interested in the legal aspects of Floor's requirement, but I do think I need to correct some misconceptions about whether or not you can discriminate if it's YOUR whatever. Sorry, but people have been using that defense and losing in court since the Civil Rights Act in 1964. Hopefully no one here will ever be that bigoted or stupid when starting their own businesses or renting their own homes.
J-Dubya 777
It NEVER ends
I would love for you to cite one case where an owner of a house or condo, or someone leasing an apartment couldn't choose their own room mate/housemate. If the owner of said apartment building refused to lease to somebody who met the qualifications for the lease, based on gender,race, religion, or whatever, THEN you'd have a case, and I'd back it 100%. Same thing if someone was selling their house/condo. Same thing if both parties were on the lease or mortgage.
It's her "art" & her "craft". Who she choses to help her vision of said art has no legal bearing or precedent that I'm aware of. I applaud her for her honesty, and I'm not even a fanboy. Are you from some socialist future?
You're not interested in the legal aspects, but you want to cite them?
ReVamp probably falls under a private company. If I want to open a private IT consulting group on my own, I CAN hire who I want, I don't have to have anybody forced on me who I don't want to hire. If I incorporate and want to take advantage of business tax breaks/laws, THEN again, you'd be correct, and the playing field would be much different. So, until we see ReVamp Inc.
this kind of crap wouldn't even make it to People's Court....
Arbitrary discrimination...... Stupid.
Trying to use violence or "laws" to force people not to discriminate...... Stupider.
The amount of time you've spent complaining about this given that the band members are already selected and you've never even heard her side of the story...... Stupidest.
Taliwakker
.....
J-Dubya 777
It NEVER ends
I'm actually mad at myself for being sucked into the cesspool....
I just couldn't take it anymore.....every man has his breaking point...:zombie:
What gets me is that there are people here who are actually angry about this thread.
If it's not a big deal, why get so defensive on her behalf? It's interesting that only Glenn could provide a plausible explanation, whereas everyone else's attitude is that sex discrimination is peachy. Because women can't get along with women in a business environment. I'm not upset at Floor, I'm upset that there are some people here on this board who think that way about women. Is there something about heavy metal that makes us this way?
If it's not a big deal, why get so defensive on her behalf? It's interesting that only Glenn could provide a plausible explanation, whereas everyone else's attitude is that sex discrimination is peachy. Because women can't get along with women in a business environment. I'm not upset at Floor, I'm upset that there are some people here on this board who think that way about women. Is there something about heavy metal that makes us this way?
J-Dubya 777
It NEVER ends
What gets me is that there are people here who are actually angry about this thread.
If it's not a big deal, why get so defensive on her behalf? It's interesting that only Glenn could provide a plausible explanation, whereas everyone else's attitude is that sex discrimination is peachy. Because women can't get along with women in a business environment. I'm not upset at Floor, I'm upset that there are some people here on this board who think that way about women. Is there something about heavy metal that makes us this way?
I'm only angry at myself for getting drawn into it!
I just don't like to see such stuff as "bigot", "Civil Rights Act of 1964", and a misinterpertation of discrimination thrown around in regards to something like this. The rest of my POV is pretty much spelled out at the end of page 3....
THAT is why I'll defend her position in this thread.... So if Michael Romeo says he's going to add a second guitar player to Symphony X, but doesn't want any hacks, does that mean CC Deville should automatically be put into the band if he wants to join? :Smokedev:
The discrimination card is played WAY too much as it is, never thought I'd see it played on a music related forum.
The discrimination card is overplayed, I agree. People call discrimination in all kinds of cases where other factors were at play.
However, when you say "no women allowed" that's pretty open and shut.
Floor Jansen was given a chance at a time when there were almost no females fronting metal bands. She was hired just to sing backup.
Now all legal issues aside, where would Floor Jansen be today if the guys in After Forever had said, "We don't want any chicks in this band."
At the very least I would think we could all agree it's some seriously bad karma.
However, when you say "no women allowed" that's pretty open and shut.
Floor Jansen was given a chance at a time when there were almost no females fronting metal bands. She was hired just to sing backup.
Now all legal issues aside, where would Floor Jansen be today if the guys in After Forever had said, "We don't want any chicks in this band."
At the very least I would think we could all agree it's some seriously bad karma.
We've been over that. If a certain sex is required for a certain job, that makes sense. A singer could be required to be a certain sex since the voice your looking for matters.
However, what Floor needs is some fingers, and last I checked, both males and females had fingers capable of playing instruments.
What's getting everyone angry is your insistence that just because we don't have a problem with Floor hiring whomever she wants for her band, that we're all being sexist and discriminatory.
And again, when doesn't discrimination involve someone's business? Is it possible to discriminate using someone else's?
Here's another question. Having a band of her caliber doesn't just involve hiring bandmates. She'll need a tour bus driver. She'll need roadies. She'll need techs. She might want people staffing merchandise tables. Might need a webmaster.
Can Floor Jansen, as CEO of Revamp Inc., demand only males for these other positions, or is her moral right to discriminate end with the band itself?
However, what Floor needs is some fingers, and last I checked, both males and females had fingers capable of playing instruments.
What's getting everyone angry is your insistence that just because we don't have a problem with Floor hiring whomever she wants for her band, that we're all being sexist and discriminatory.
And again, when doesn't discrimination involve someone's business? Is it possible to discriminate using someone else's?
Here's another question. Having a band of her caliber doesn't just involve hiring bandmates. She'll need a tour bus driver. She'll need roadies. She'll need techs. She might want people staffing merchandise tables. Might need a webmaster.
Can Floor Jansen, as CEO of Revamp Inc., demand only males for these other positions, or is her moral right to discriminate end with the band itself?
Similar threads
