MEAN DEVIATION: Four Decades of Progressive Heavy Metal, by Jeff Wagner

[Jasonic]

Their music was so progressive compared to what everyone else was doing back in the day. Just listen to Into the Pandemonium for proof

Once again, genre classification is subjective.
Yes, I know that album very well.

I simply do not agree.
I don't solely classify changing your sound to be "progressive"

The transformation from their core sound to dark goth, then avant garde, and then glam hardly classifies as being progressive.

Just my opinion though.

 

[J. Golden]

Once again, genre classification is subjective.
Yes, I know that album very well.

I simply do not agree.
I don't solely classify changing your sound to be "progressive"

The transformation from their core sound to dark goth, then avant garde, and then glam hardly classifies as being progressive.

Just my opinion though.

I don't think it is the transition into "glam" (which that period even wasn't glam) that would garnish CF a progressive tag.
Progressive is not changing to a different style as much as evolving and pushing boundaries. Frost certainly did push things. Voivod is progressive, Hammers of Misfortune is progressive.

 

[Claus / Intromental]

The transformation from their core sound to dark goth, then avant garde, and then glam hardly classifies as being progressive.

Misconception of all time - Celtic Frost was never glam. The music on "Cold Lake", albeit the "hair metal" imagery, was thrash metal, (and, in fact, awesome thrash metal).

It's not the transformation from one style to the next, it's not the changes, that makes them progressive.
The fact is that their music was YEARS ahead of what anyone else could come up with / think of at the time. Noone had done the full blown orchestrations in a metal setting, thrown in gothic parts and death metal on top of a classic metal meets death metal disc. It just hadn't been heard before, and it was very much "forward-thinking" (= progressive) in it's true sense.

c.

 

[J. Golden]

I remember as a kid Celtic Frost was the first metal I ever heard using operatic female vocals. Long before Nightwish all you Tarja goobers out there.
As for 'Cold Lake' glam it was not at all. Though it was a step down for Frost, the next album brought them back a bit. Listen to it now it isn't bad I think I was harsher on it way back. But any metal and that had the balls to cover a Stan Ridgeway song gets props from me. That cover alone showed how free thinking Frost were and that they would do whatever the hell they wanted to do.
Now there was a worthy mention for that metal cover pop thread a month ago.

 

[BenMech]

Misconception of all time - Celtic Frost was never glam. The music on "Cold Lake", albeit the "hair metal" imagery, was thrash metal, (and, in fact, awesome thrash metal).

It's not the transformation from one style to the next, it's not the changes, that makes them progressive.
The fact is that their music was YEARS ahead of what anyone else could come up with / think of at the time. Noone had done the full blown orchestrations in a metal setting, thrown in gothic parts and death metal on top of a classic metal meets death metal disc. It just hadn't been heard before, and it was very much "forward-thinking" (= progressive) in it's true sense.

c.

Once again, Claus says something I would have said had I been here first.
We're living in bizarro world.

 

[Jasonic]

I totally agree with ALL that is being said.
The term "progressive" when it comes to music is probably the MOST subjective of all genres.

Yep, I lived through all of CF's transformations.

They did indeed blaze the trail for a lot of later genres.

I will be honest. I never listened to Cold Lake in it's entirety. Once the Cherry Orchards video debuted on Headbangers Ball, I was done with the band, to be honest.

 

[TribunalRecords]

i will bring my response over from the MATHCORE thread since it applies here as well (note it was in response to BTBAM being progressive or not)

...but any metal or rock band truly pushing modern perceptions of what can be expected i call progressive. like most "progressive" metal bands today aren't progressive to me, like Circus Maximus, Vanden Plas, etc. does it mean i don't like them? hell no, but when you are playing rehashed Dream Theater stuff then how can you be considered progressive? simply because of your time signatures? it has to be something else and considering BTBAM mix it up on each album i consider them more progressive by my definition of it.

 

[VenomGA]

Once again, genre classification is subjective.
Yes, I know that album very well.

I simply do not agree.
I don't solely classify changing your sound to be "progressive"

The transformation from their core sound to dark goth, then avant garde, and then glam hardly classifies as being progressive.

Just my opinion though.

The band was ALWAYS changing boundaries of metal with their sound from one album to the next, that is the VERY essence of progressive. Hence my example of the Into the Pandemonium album. NO ONE was doing that in metal at the time. It just blew me away the first time I heard it. Celtic Frost was the very essence of Progressive metal not just simply time changes like we lump Queensryche, Dream Theater and Fates Warning and the like. They actually did things no one else was doing back in the early/mid 80's.

 

[J. Golden]

The first time I ever heard the word progressive used in reference to a band was in junior high when someone used it to describe The Cure. At the I had no idea what the word meant used in that way. Later I would hear it used to describe Yes, Rush, Genesis, etc. Then there was the progressive metal tag which was only Queensyrche and Fates Warning it seemed until Dream Theater. Not sure if I still fully got it at that point.
Then suddenly when all the DT clones hit I fully grasped the term and realized that s$#t wasn't "progressive metal" and later bands like DT would cease to be.
Looking back I see why the term was used to describe The Cure and it so fits. Now I understand why Voivod and Celtic Frost would be more progressive than DT ever were.
If you look at prog rock and metal it all eventually starts sound the same. In the 70s there became a few different molds. In progressive metal it is the same way. Frost did not do this, they did things on Tomas terms no matter if it was a blunder or not.

 

[J. Golden]

i will bring my response over from the MATHCORE thread since it applies here as well (note it was in response to BTBAM being progressive or not)

...but any metal or rock band truly pushing modern perceptions of what can be expected i call progressive. like most "progressive" metal bands today aren't progressive to me, like Circus Maximus, Vanden Plas, etc. does it mean i don't like them? hell no, but when you are playing rehashed Dream Theater stuff then how can you be considered progressive? simply because of your time signatures? it has to be something else and considering BTBAM mix it up on each album i consider them more progressive by my definition of it.

I have to read this thread I can image all the choadies and chatchies were against you as usual. HAHA

 

[TribunalRecords]

choadies and chatchies

you owe me a quarter in the copyright jar! that is mine.

 

[Jasonic]

Hence my example of the Into the Pandemonium album. NO ONE was doing that in metal at the time.

True, though I think Mercyful Fate and Bathory were also doing things no one else was as well, though certainly not to the degree of CF or VoiVod.

As I said before, who cares? All the bands we have been discussing here rule!

Good to see any deserving band getting exposure.

 

[J. Golden]

you owe me a quarter in the copyright jar! that is mine.

Oh no my friend, you called them choads and choates. I said choaties and chatchies and you laughed your ass off. I'll take my quarter back thank you.

 

[TribunalRecords]

Oh no my friend, you called them choads and choates. I said choaties and chatchies and you laughed your ass off. I'll take my quarter back thank you.

this one is up for debate. i am the one in our duo that uses the word Choad. i don't even know what a "Choates" is. we are going to have to go to the judges on this one!

 

[nomisofsiman]

Just got a notification today from Amazon that the book is available for pre-order and the date of release has been changed to December 1. Whether that is the real date we'll have to see.

 

[VenomGA]

Just got a notification today from Amazon that the book is available for pre-order and the date of release has been changed to December 1. Whether that is the real date we'll have to see.

same here....

 

[BenMech]

the newest press release, for your information/enjoyment

VOIVOD and PORCUPINE TREE Members Contribute to
'MEAN DEVIATION: Four Decades of Progressive Heavy Metal'
Bazillion Points Books is proud to announce the late 2010 release of 'MEAN DEVIATION: Four Decades of Progressive Heavy Metal', by Jeff Wagner-a former editor of Metal Maniacs magazine and veteran supporter of metal's most risk-taking bands. Wagner analyzes the heady side of metal in this exhaustive history of a relentlessly ambitious musical subculture. The book features extensive original artwork throughout by VOIVOD drummer Michel "Away" Langevin, including the lavish front cover which can be viewed at this location:

http://www.mean-deviation.com

The book's foreword was penned by PORCUPINE TREE founder Steven Wilson. Revered in progressive rock circles, the multi-talented Wilson is also highly respected by metalheads as producer of three landmark Opeth albums. As he writes: "In Jeff Wagner's MEAN DEVIATION, we now have a definitive book on the relationship between metal and progressive music, and the myriad variation of styles that it has given rise to...In the meantime, metal continues to mutate and evolve, sometimes in the most unexpected ways, demonstrating that it is far from spent and is, in fact, the most flexible of musical forms."

Beginning with 1970s progressive rock acts Rush and King Crimson, MEAN DEVIATION unfurls a colorful tapestry of sounds and styles, from the "Big Three" of 1980s prog metal-Queensrÿche, Fates Warning, and Dream Theater-to extreme pioneers Voivod, Watchtower, and Arcturus. As sparks of inspiration spread to obscure outposts in Scandinavia, Florida, and Japan, progressive metal burst into full creative flame with the successes of prog metal overlords Opeth, Meshuggah, Tool, Between the Buried and Me, and many others.

"One thing prog metal certainly is, is metal," Wagner continues. "Hard and bold and brash, but refined, adulterated, and mutated. Progressive metal is heavy metal taken somewhere illuminating and sometimes bizarre."

Weighing in at 400 pages, the heavily-illustrated book includes a 16-page color photo insert, a constellation of appendixes, and a full index. For more information, and to preorder, visit:

http://www.mean-deviation.com

Thank you!

# # #

Jeff Wagner is available for interviews. Send over questions, and request review copies via: bazillion@bazillionpoints.com

 

[Kimavir]

Celtic Frost are prog???

Since when is Avante Garde prog????

Well, they kick ass regardless, so any exposure is good exposure.

Genre classification has always been subjective anyhow.

Good to see VoiVod getting some much deserved recognition as well.

Wonder if Anacrusis will get any love?

From my dictionary:

pro·gres·sive   
[pruh-gres-iv]
–adjective

1. favoring or advocating progress, change, improvement, or reform, as opposed to wishing to maintain things as they are, esp. in political matters: a progressive mayor.

Think of the word by definition instead of genre-definition, and your questions are answered.

 

[KingsGene]

Bazillion Points is offering a free download extract of Chapter 5 - Passing The Threshold, from the newly-released book Mean Deviation: Four Decades Of Progressive Heavy Metal, by Jeff Wagner. The PDF download is available at this location. ( http://www.mean-deviation.com/ )

After tracing the origins of progressive metal from RUSH, KING CRIMSON, and BLACK SABBATH, in this excerpt Wagner looks at the formation and importance of the most groundbreaking of progressive metal mavericks. High points include John Arch's dramatic exit from FATES WARNING; the story behind Operation Mindcrime; the rise and fall of CRIMSON GLORY; and even a curious "What if?" section, that ponders a near-miss of early prog metal history involving WATCHTOWER guitarist Ron Jarzombek.

In addition, the book's index can be also be downloaded, providing an in-depth look at numbers behind Wagner's treatment of ATHEIST, BELIEVER, VOIVOD, DREAM THEATER, and other progressive metal giants. The index is available in PDF format at the link above.

 

[TribunalRecords]

the book rules, that is all anyone needs to know. support the cause and Jeff!!