KAMELOT 2015 - New Album "HAVEN"

Here's another perspective on that. You can be a band which releases discs people want to hear and have a lengthy and successful career. Or you can be a band that puts out two or three discs exploring your art and then breaks up because they aren't making enough money to buy bologna, much less bread.
I don't think we're actually disagreeing, I think your missing my point (or maybe I'm missing yours). If Kamelot wants to write the same record over and over again, that's their right. And if they're successful in that endeavor, all the better for them. I also agree that sticking with a winning formula is a significantly better career strategy than constantly reinventing yourself. My ONLY point in this, is that Kamelot ARE in fact writing the same record over and over again and subsequently NOT exploring their art.

So is that all that writing pop hits is in your opinion? Just marketing strategy and makeup and nothing more? Zero musical creativity?
I'd also add luck to that list.

Do I think the actual songwriters who write these hit songs are talented? Some are, some aren't. I think untalented people can stumble onto a hit. Those who can write hit songs with consistency clearly have a talent. Appealing to the lowest common denominator is not easy. If it was, everyone would do it. But if you're asking me if I think the Pop hits that litter the Billboard charts are the result of great songwriting or marketing and makeup? My answer is, by and large, marketing and makeup. It's not by coincidence that it's impossible to distinguish the red carpet at the Grammys from a Paris fashion show runway.

Ok. Let's approach this from another angle. Let's take the band Boston as an example. Unquestionably one of THE biggest classic rock bands in the history of the genre. But if ever there was a band which wrote according to formula, it was Boston. I would argue that their music is the very definition of "signature sound". Does that fact alone invalidate their music?
Again, I feel as though we're not communicating clearly. To develop an original, successful signature sound takes talent and vision. But once you've developed it, you can do one of two things; stagnate within that sound or explore that sound. If you want to write the same record over and over again and collect your checks, go for it. Those are the rewards of hitting upon a signature sound. However... you don't get to do so without people pointing out that's what you're doing. It's not an unfair criticism to point out that Kamelot is writing the same record over and over again, it's an accurate assessment.
 
I don't think we're actually disagreeing, I think your missing my point (or maybe I'm missing yours). If Kamelot wants to write the same record over and over again, that's their right. And if they're successful in that endeavor, all the better for them. I also agree that sticking with a winning formula is a significantly better career strategy than constantly reinventing yourself. My ONLY point in this, is that Kamelot ARE in fact writing the same record over and over again and subsequently NOT exploring their art...[snip]...Again, I feel as though we're not communicating clearly. To develop an original, successful signature sound takes talent and vision. But once you've developed it, you can do one of two things; stagnate within that sound or explore that sound. If you want to write the same record over and over again and collect your checks, go for it. Those are the rewards of hitting upon a signature sound. However... you don't get to do so without people pointing out that's what you're doing. It's not an unfair criticism to point out that Kamelot is writing the same record over and over again, it's an accurate assessment.

As far as communicating clearly, I would say yes and no. There are some subtleties to my argument which I think are being missed and I would say the same is probably true on your end.

Allow me to go back to Kamelot for a moment if I may. I love this band for one primary reason...the melodies. They understand how to write a hook. Let me lift just one song from the 'Haven' disc...'Veil Of Elysium'. I can play that song through a couple of times and an hour or two later I will find myself humming the melody as I go about my day. And I honestly cannot say that about very many metal bands at all. When I play most metal music, I usually will remember one thing...a powerful guitar riff. But when I play Kamelot's music, I hear and remember the SONG itself. The vocal line. It just sticks in my head and I cannot get it out. And this is the band's most amazing strength musically imo...the ability to write songs that stick with you melodically. Again, I must use my wife here as a sounding board. Please understand she is not a metal fan. Her tastes run to the mellower side of classic rock and folk rock. However, she heard 'Under Grey Skies' one time in our car and pronounced: "If there were any justice in this world, that would be a massive radio hit." So I asked her why she felt that way. And she said: "Just listen to the vocalists, the male and the female. And that chorus...You may call me a dreamer...it just sticks in your head after one listen." Now, say what you will, but that is an art form in it's own right in my opinion. Is it a wanky widdly shreddy display of musical chops and instrumental prowess? Nope. But is it incredibly musical? I would argue yes. Another song is 'My Therapy'...which just came up on my play list at work. That song is just so well written. Take the chorus: "Come and take me off my daily dose of pain, take me off and shelter me from this static nothing. You’re the antidote for solitude injected in my veins. May the touch of your hand forever be...my therapy." That entire melody just RULES imo. The very first time I played it here, all of my work mates were asking 'Who is that? Sounds amazing.' I don't find that to be soporific or uncreative at all. I think writing a hook which captures emotion and feeling and sticks in people's brains is just as valid as writing a fifteen minute musical opus filled with crazy starts and stops and time signature changes and all kinds of cool instrumental twists and turns. Don't get me wrong. I love complex and challenging music also...as much or maybe even more than the next guy. But I also love music which connects on a more visceral and emotional level too. It's not that one is great and the other sucks...at least in my opinion. Music connects on many levels. There's more than one way to appreciate it.

However, I do understand your argument as well. I feel that some of the greatest music ever written has been created by bands which try to perform a careful balancing act between the two...writing great hooks and pushing artistic boundaries. Many err on the side of writing pop hooks (Maroon 5) but it's just as easy to veer off into eccentric and boring noodling for noodling's sake (Tales From Topographic Oceans anyone?). A great example of this balance is one of my favorite bands...Kansas. They wrote music that had a certain commercial appeal with vocal hooks carefully crafted to catch the ear. Who doesn’t have a visceral response when they hear the words: “Carry on my wayward son”? But they also explored the creative edges of their musical boundaries to a great degree. And that, I think, makes for the best combination…a band which retains it's pop sensibilities while at the same time venturing off the beaten path enough to take some risks. That, in the final analysis, is what I think you are trying to argue for.
 
Allow me to go back to Kamelot for a moment if I may. I love this band for one primary reason...the melodies. They understand how to write a hook.
I agree. It’s the reason I own five of their records.

Let me lift just one song from the 'Haven' disc...'Veil Of Elysium'. I can play that song through a couple of times and an hour or two later I will find myself humming the melody as I go about my day. And I honestly cannot say that about very many metal bands at all. When I play most metal music, I usually will remember one thing...a powerful guitar riff. But when I play Kamelot's music, I hear and remember the SONG itself. The vocal line. It just sticks in my head and I cannot get it out. And this is the band's most amazing strength musically imo...the ability to write songs that stick with you melodically.
I would agree with this as well. Where our paths diverge lies in how much their newer songs continue to stick in my head; not at all. Rather than being absorbed by the melody, I’m bored of it. I feel as if these are all melodies I’ve heard from them before. Do the songs sound exactly like any one specific song from their catalog? Not necessarily. However, do they sound just like the whole of the catalog? Absolutely. Without fail, upon first listening to “Haven”, I knew when the song would get softer, when they would soar, when they would change pace, when Tommy would hold a note, etc. It’s become predictable to the point of being tedious. Now, if you’re someone who simply can’t get enough of this style, I appreciate why another album of more of the same is a welcomed addition. But I don’t fall into that demographic. And at this point, “Haven” is an unnecessary addition to my collection.

Again, I must use my wife here as a sounding board. Please understand she is not a metal fan. Her tastes run to the mellower side of classic rock and folk rock. However, she heard 'Under Grey Skies' one time in our car and pronounced: "If there were any justice in this world, that would be a massive radio hit." So I asked her why she felt that way. And she said: "Just listen to the vocalists, the male and the female. And that chorus...You may call me a dreamer...it just sticks in your head after one listen."
Had I never heard a Kamelot song before, I’d feel similarly.

Now, say what you will, but that is an art form in it's own right in my opinion. Is it a wanky widdly shreddy display of musical chops and instrumental prowess? Nope. But is it incredibly musical? I would argue yes.
Just to clarify, my position is not at all based on the skill level of the musicianship. The musicianship in Kamelot is excellent. My criticisms are only directed toward the sameness of the songs.

Another song is 'My Therapy'...which just came up on my play list at work. That song is just so well written. Take the chorus: "Come and take me off my daily dose of pain, take me off and shelter me from this static nothing. You’re the antidote for solitude injected in my veins. May the touch of your hand forever be...my therapy." That entire melody just RULES imo. The very first time I played it here, all of my work mates were asking 'Who is that? Sounds amazing.' I don't find that to be soporific or uncreative at all. I think writing a hook which captures emotion and feeling and sticks in people's brains is just as valid as writing a fifteen minute musical opus filled with crazy starts and stops and time signature changes and all kinds of cool instrumental twists and turns. Don't get me wrong. I love complex and challenging music also...as much or maybe even more than the next guy. But I also love music which connects on a more visceral and emotional level too. It's not that one is great and the other sucks...at least in my opinion. Music connects on many levels. There's more than one way to appreciate it. .
Again, my position is not at all based on song duration, odd time signatures, or some unholy need for lyrics to be derived from Greek tragedies. As for your friends and wife who immediately found these hooks appealing, how many of them are familiar with the five records that preceded “Haven”? All along, my argument has not been that “Haven” wouldn’t sound fresh and hooky to someone who’s never heard Kamelot before. My point is that the hooks, although quality, are hooks I’ve heard from Kamelot many times before. Does writing more quality hooks take talent? Yes. Can you consider that an art form? Sure. Are you exploring your art if you simply churn out ten new songs that are interchangeable with any of the songs from your previous three records? No. Not in my opinion.

EDIT: I will go back and give Haven another listen.
 
This one was really a grower for me. While I knew it was quality as soon as shrink wrap was removed I didn't have nearly the respect for the material I now do. There's so many little nuances with Tommy's performance that he, to me, now has to be considered among the elite.
 
You know your set lists are stale when adding in a new track from your latest album is news worth :loco::heh::devil:

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I must admit, I was wrong about this record. After the back and forth I had with MeTuLHeD I decided to go back and give this record another shot and found myself enjoying it. It's likely the best thing they've done since The Black Halo. It's not a great album, but it is a good album and is a testament to Thomas' talents as a songwriter.
 
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KAMELOT RELEASE “MY THERAPY” MUSIC VIDEO

"...The “My Therapy” video serves to put a spotlight on social anxiety that effects up to 20% of adults worldwide.

Kamelot vocalist Tommy Karevik states: "The original idea of the song was based on experiments done years ago on children where they would be clinically taken care of, but never held, loved or nurtured. The outcome was disastrous and proves that in this sometimes complicated world spinning faster and faster, the very foundation of our health and well being really rests upon something very simple and uncomplicated... The human touch...."