The End Records, Novembers Doom & CNN...

Ok, i think a lot of what I am saying is based on the fact the the New England scene is 98% metalcore and the other types just fall in, with grind running second place and melodic death metal, and the counterparts following suite, We have a weird scene, so i may be out of the loop with a lot of stuff. I will say this, all ages shows are sorely lacking here, you would have way better turn outs if they just found away around all that (won't happen) But there in lies another problem, that's why a lot of the youngsters don't know you, you know? Another thing, the "doom" thing will probably always be there, have you guys concidered a name change? it sucks to do especially after 20 years, but if it works, then who knows. i did like the idea Danimal had, something you guys can offer that is exclusive to just your fans from you that you could charge from on special/monthly/weekly ocasians would be sick!

My 2 cents
 
Dan's idea is cool. I'm always open to new things we can do for the fans. But in terms of gaining new fans, I don't think it'll really attract many new fans yknow? That's kind of what I'm talking about here in this thread, ideas for reaching new crowds, younger crowds, etc. But yeah I'm always interested in stuff we can do for those already loyal :)

As for the doom thing and the name change....honestly, it's the older fans and stuff who have the issue with it. Fuck man, most 16 year old metal fans don't even really know what "doom metal" is (and that's not meant as an insult to them either). That's where I'm saying I think it's good because they're not necessarily judging us based on our name or whether or not we sound like we're British doom copycats or some such bullshit. There's no reason for us to change our name. The word "doom" in our name is not meant to signify some grand allegiance to doom metal. That's some trip that other people started in regards to us, unfortunately, mostly people who are involved in the doom metal scene and are very opinionated about it. I won't deny our doom influences and that we'll always have that dark sound to us, but the whole "Novembers Doom should be doom metal or change their name shit" is fucking stupid, I get asked in every fucking interview lately about that now. There's a band out there called DOOM who don't even play anything remotely close to doom metal, so what's their problem huh LOL If people would honestly judge us differently or give us more of a chance just because we change our name, even if we're playing EXACTLY the same music as we are now, then those people can suck a dead mongoose dick.

There does need to be more all ages shows. And the older metalheads should probably start trying to be cooler to those younger metalheads and try to turn them onto some good shit, rather than just scoffing at them and hating them because they're at a Behemoth show wearing an As I Lay Dying shirt, or they think metalcore rules the world, when honestly they just don't know any better yet. And there's some good metalcore bands out there too, who I'd be happy to share a stage with. St. Vitus and Black Flag toured together back in the early 80s, and that was waaay more unheard of then. As a result you had kids like Dave Grohl and Kurt Cobain and Buzz Osbourne who grew up being famous punks who could appreciate some good doom and metal because of that. If they could pull it off, then why can't we?

I don't mean this negatively towards you, Dan, I hear what you're saying and as a musician I know you understand where I'm coming from. I just think there's a whole new generation of metal fans out there who may seem like they're "hopeless" but I guarantee you that many of them aren't. And for us older bands to just turn our noses up and not try to reach them and turn them onto what we're doing is a big mistake, I believe. We didn't write the music on the new cd as a conscious means to appeal to the young metal fans. But in the past year or so I've seen more younger fans start to take notice of us, and I realise now that we might have something to offer them after all, without having to compromise ourselves and our musical integrity.
 
hmmm that idea about streaming practices is a great idea! in fact I've seen sites that let you do this kind of stuff and a number of bands already do it (for free mind you).

You've been together forever it must feel like, but this is why you shouldn't stop now. The music you play is targeted to a very small audience, but that audience is growing right now. This is why time is on your side. all you can do is keep playing and hope people like you. get the word out there. if touring isn't exactly your thing, do the webcam idea. I think its the closest thing some of your fans can get to the real thing.

as mentioned before all ages shows are needed around here. with too many bars doing most of the good gigs it is hard to get a crowd out (a good portion of my friends are still under 21).

Metalheads naturally want to hear new music, but it has to satisfy their tastes. i find metalcore kids also enjoy melodic death metal and thrash, but wouldn't like doom or black as much. maybe if you keep mixing in the "death" into your doom sound it'll attract this audience more? not saying sell out, but it'll catch their ears more than if not.
 
Well that's what I'm saying really....the majority of music on TNR has more of a death metal sensibility to it than doom metal. We've gained quite a bit of new fans because of them hearing "Drown the Inland Mere" and such. Plus we always tend to come off more aggressive and heavy in the live setting.

The problem with the rehearsal space webcam is that we don't really have a practice space that's condusive to doing that (its dark, small, and LOUD!) However we have been discussing different ideas about what we can offer on the 'net that might be interesting and exclusive. We'll talk more about it once we have a better idea of what we're doing...

Touring is such a gamble...I mean everyone says "you guys gotta tour tour tour!" and yet even when we do tour or play special one-off gigs or fests, I hear far more excuses from people as to why they can't come see us, because of lack of money, or its too far, or it's on a tuesday or whatever. Touring is a huge gamble and with there being so much competition out on the road these days, it's getting harder and harder to convince even some of your best fans to shell out the bucks and attend your show. That's why bands have to be very particular about the tour package they choose and which clubs/towns to play....and that's if you can even get those things.

This biz is alot more of a pain in the ass than you'd think, folks! ;)
 
You want to know what I think gets a band noticed?
Being the oddball band on a label or a bill......

Larry - your mention of Saint Vitus touring with Black Flag is a perfect example. Getting into underground metal and punk in the 80's, Saint Vitus to me were always, "That one metal band on SST Records" Well, if you were into punk, but also liked metal, it was an instant second customer base for the band.

Therefore, I think if Nov Doom could play with someone outside of the death or doom realm, it would be beneficial. I think playing with Mayhem will expose the band to a whole new base of fans who have not yet seen you play.

Also, I agree that older metal head who "dust off the leather" to see Maiden, Priest, and Motorhead, are NOT the fans who would go to purchase your album (Even if they did see you open for Motorhead or King Diamond and liked you). Those fans don't even purchase newer albums of bands they liked back in the day.

It looks like this year so far you are lined up to play a lot of shows that are "outside the box" for Nov Doom (IE - Powerfest, Mayhem, Slough Feg, etc).. So, I think you guys are on the right track to get exposed to newer crowds this year.
 
Hey man, I wasn't saying I think you should change the name, please don't get me wrong cause I would never "dance" for anyone. Just that you keep getting this whole pigonhole thing and it's like a dead end road it seems with these asshole narrowminded losers out there.

I agree on the younger kids being mold-able matter of fact, this is no lie, I saw a kid in a friends record shop the other day and we(the owner and I) were talking about our new album Doom metal and I noticed that He had your album there so I was like dud that's killer, told him if I hadn't already bought it, I would have got it from him...anyway this young Metalcore looking like 17 year old heard us talking and Bought our new album and he said is there any other darker type stuff and I suggested you guys, He bought it, and I guess he is a fan now! So yeah reaching the youth is the right idea.
Maybe more in store promo(posters exc.) would help you guys out. I know that is a whole other thing trying to get big chain store to do that, but it's worth a shot. Also, man, I would help out if needed. I hit all the stores on a regular basis for flyers for our gigs and so forth, i could hang shit up at the cool stores here if you want. If the younger kids see a poster of a cool looking album cover and the right press/bio on the front, you just may sell more to the kids. Either way, if you want to send me stuff, I'll hang it up.
Also if you have small flyers and want to do it like the old days, maybe send them and when we sell cd's i'll throw them out with our cd orders. Back in the day when tape trading/letters and shit were cool, every band helped eachother and everyone knew who we all were. back to basics perhapse? I could Even put your flyers at our merch table, lately we have had crazy amounts of youngsters buying the cd's and going to shows. In fact I get myspace im's all the time from underaged kids begging us to do all ages shows more often. if we get your flyers there and all the bands that are friendly help eachother out ...who knows.
 
I understood what you were saying, Dan, that's why I stated that my vitriol on the subject wasn't directed at you.

I think promotional tools like posters and stuff in cd shops can be important, for sure. The End makes those really nice posters for us which makes me happy, but neither us nor the label can force the store owners and workers to put them up unfortunately. I think having those posters is great though because even if our name doesn't catch someone's eye, I know our artwork will. We've received messages from people saying they checked us out merely because they saw our album cover art and thought it looked interesting.

Marketing is key, really, to making or breaking a band, particularly with younger crowds. I mean c'mon, who thought six years ago that bands like Opeth and Mastadon would have loads of teenage fans worshipping them, given the kind of music those bands play? What worked for them was very clever marketing. Both of those bands are comprised of adult musicians who draw much influence from the sounds of the past, and had little in common with much of what was popular in music at the time both bands really became a "hit". But they weren't marketed as being any sort of throwback, or constantly put into some micro-sub-genre and marketed only to fans of said genre. Touring alot, needless to say, helped those bands immensely. That's an area where unfortunately we're a bit fucked in comparison. But regardless, my feelings are that we can reach a more broad audience now than ever before and I'm hoping we'll succeed in that, in whatever ways we can.

I'll end this whole matter on a funny story, something that occurred earlier today actually....

I was talking via myspace with a young guy who friend requested me and sent me a message saying he just discovered us via the TNR cd, and really loved it, and wanted to know more about us, etc. So I wrote him back a nice reply and directed him to our website and the forum. He wrote back talking a bit more about the band, saying that he could see us playing on Sounds of the Underground with bands like Unearth and The Red Chord. I wrote back and sort of laughed and said "That's cool, that's definitely a change from people constantly just lumping us in with My Dying Bride, Paradise Lost and Anathema!" He messaged me back and said "Who, who, and who??" LOL

I just wrote him back and said, "Thank you for that, you made my day." I dunno if he was serious or just trying to be funny, but either way it was a relief. :)
 
haha yeah, honestly I think the kid just doesn't know who those bands are, I don't think he was trying to be disrespectful! But it made me happy in a way because it just solidified my point I'd been trying to make, that the younger fans will hear us without some of those preformed prejudices that others have towards us.
 
Right on guys, that';s a great story, that indeed would make anyone feel good especially in your particular pigonhole situation, that's awesome! SOTU would be perfect for you guys, have you looked into joining the ranks? Maybe the label could help out in that department? The big thing is definitely Touring, and I know exactly where you guys are coming from, as we too and in our 30's have babies and can't get off of work for more than a few days. I am lucky being a bricklayer though, not being cocky, but I am very good at my job, and I happened to land a great job with a very understanding music lover/boss lol. Alas, the others in the band aren't as lucky and that sounds like your problem also. Fucking sucks! I say we all move out of the country to Singapore where the government pays for the bands to record and tour!!! When we played with Rudra at HC2, that's whet those guys told us, imagine that!!!!!! that would be the best!!! The downside is that if you get cought smoking pot, it's an instant beheading!
 
I don't think there's any chance of us ever being on SOTU or something like that. Besides the fact that there's so many bands competing for those few slots on there, the cost of buying onto a tour like that, plus the cost of keeping a band on the road for that amount of time is just too much for us to handle. Another thing people have to take into account is Paul's health issues, which I don't like to bring up alot or use as an excuse but truth is that a long tour like that would be extremely hard on him. It'd be hard for me given my own health issues, and mine aren't half as bad as his :( He's a trooper and he does what he can, because in truth he's a pretty tough motherfucker. But doing a two month summer tour is probably not gonna happen.

If anything it kinda seems to me like touring is more important for a band in terms of the "credability" it gives, rather than how many people you're going to really draw and turn onto you. If you're a band who tours alot you tend to get a more serious reaction from people within the industry, or even from the fans themselves. Not saying turnout isn't important, it definitely is.

Even for bands like Into Eternity (very good band, btw) who tour alot like they're "supposed to", I think it gets to the point where alot of people get turned off because they tour so much. I've heard many people say "Aw man Into Eternity is opening that show AGAIN! I saw them two or three times already this year!" Which sucks because IE are a great band, but I think the point is that, except for a band's really diehard fans, most people want to see something new when they go to multiple shows, not always see the same three or four opening acts on every tour that comes through town. But doing all that touring on multiple tours is also getting them exposed to more people too.....so I guess it's just a double-edged sword.

Truth be told, speaking for myself only....I'm pretty happy with how things are for ND right now. Sure I'd love to be more well-known and heard by more people out there, but we're not a band who sells 150,000 copies of each cd and I'm okay with that. Ten years ago my priorities were different and I would've just about sold my soul to be able to tour for 5 or 6 months a year and be on MTV2 every week and so on.....now I am just happy to be able to play with a group of guys I enjoy being around and making music with, and doing things on our own terms without having to completely turn our lives upside down to do it. I'll always strive to get our music out to more people and to be as active of a band as we can be. But we set the rules and the boundaries for ourselves in that regard, and I'm pretty content with that. All that fame and fortune shit isn't all that it's cracked up to be, anyhow.
 
I haven't read all this thread, but I'd look into trying to get a song of yours onto a disc that comes packaged with Terrorizer and Zero Tolerance. Can't think of any US-based magazines that include a sampler with every issue, though. You may have already tried/done this.
 
We've been featured on those sorts of discs before. I think we've had a song on the Brave Words & Bloody Knuckles comp cds for each of our last 3 albums. Being on those comps does actually help, I know I've heard from people who looked into us after hearing us on the BW&BK cds for the first time.
 
Indeed, sampler CD's work a treat. I've found many good bands thanks to those, so I reckon investing some energy into furthering that endeavour would be very worthwhile.

As for the tour issue, it's quite hard to come up with a good line-up that also fits quite nicely, avoiding the pitfalls of unrealistic "dream tours". Given the overlapping of fan bases (from what I can see) with Nevermore, touring with them would be a reasonable notion, especially considering the (general) open-mindedness of their fans, the established touring presence the band has and the likelihood that nearly everyone would be as interested in both bands equally. Given the content of the ND back catalogue (and the storming new record) I think they could match well with any quality metal band, from a multitude of genres.

I understand the reality of tempering the band with real-life, so to speak, but I think it'd be a great shame if some quality, nicely organised, not-too-huge tour was lined up in order to fully support the Novella Reservoir and take it right out into peoples ears, minds and hearts.

That said, if the folks in the band feel relaxed and comfortable with the situation, the time spent together and the music that comes from it, then I'm more than happy to purchase each CD and play it loud on my way to work, touring would be a great thing, but I'd rather you guys felt at ease with everything, putting out awesome material, than scarpering around the country, never settled, never comfortable, touring endlessly for no great reward.
 
Even for bands like Into Eternity (very good band, btw) who tour alot like they're "supposed to", I think it gets to the point where alot of people get turned off because they tour so much. I've heard many people say "Aw man Into Eternity is opening that show AGAIN! I saw them two or three times already this year!" Which sucks because IE are a great band, but I think the point is that, except for a band's really diehard fans, most people want to see something new when they go to multiple shows, not always see the same three or four opening acts on every tour that comes through town. But doing all that touring on multiple tours is also getting them exposed to more people too.....so I guess it's just a double-edged sword.
Click to expand...
With IE I find that a lot of people will be like "oh well I'll catch them next time," but at the same time many others try to make every show they can. i saw them like 3-4 times in one year (the first big string of tours they did).

If you can't do touring, then don't. especially if health gets in the way. Is there anyway you can try to score opening slots for the bands that pass through the area on tours? I see lots of tours with a band tagging along for like 3-4 shows then off it.

if that is even too much, just kick back and be a studio band, nothing wrong with that.
 
No no, now don't take what I said to an opposite extreme! I didn't say we'll never tour, as you can see we did a tour of Europe last November, and we have our mini jaunt coming up in a few weeks with Saturnus and Thurisaz. We're already looking into the possibility of getting back to Europe and maybe even other areas like Canada too, as well as more gigs here in the U.S. We WILL be onstage this year for sure, just don't expect to see us doing long bouts of touring, that's all.

Man I'd love to tour with Nevermore, I think we'd actually be a cool fit with them. I'd be happy even just playing a show or two with them. I was just talking with someone else earlier today about that exact thing. We're all fans of Nevermore and I think our crowd and their crowd would mesh well. Maybe someday if we're lucky, who knows?
 
What about the summer-festivals in Western and South Europe next year.
If you start in the first week of June, and end in the second week of July. Each weekend at least 30.000 people as potential fans. Some local gigs maybe. I would like to see you guys next year at http://www.graspop.be
Is Mastodon a good choice for touring in the US ?

gtx
 
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