A little help from the experts?

[dtguitarfan]

Breathe, man. We're all here because we have a love for the music, but sometimes even our favorite bands make a lousy song or album. It's not disloyal or hateful to say so. We don't have to be cheerleaders 100% of the time.

And I dig Seventh Wonder, but seriously, with those lyrics "Alley Cat" would make a sweet rockabilly number.

Sorry if that came across too harshly (to anyone but Mr. No). I'd like to try to explain a little better by way of a food analogy: I find food analogies work quite well with music for whatever reason.
So Mr. No is a big fan of Panera Bread. He LOVES their food, and loves to talk about what wonderful bread they make. He decides one day to visit The Olive Garden and orders this steak-gorgonzola pasta dish. When it is brought out to him, with a couple small pieces of bread on the side, he storms out of that restaurant in a fury, never to return. He tells as many people as he can about his experience, making sure to mention the lack of bread and how it does not measure up to Panera. He is making the following mistakes:
1) The Olive Garden never claimed to be the world's leading experts on bread - they are more about the pasta.
2) The bread there is actually not bad at all and many people like it, and Mr. No might have as well, had he given it a chance.
3) The Olive Garden has many dishes, many of which might feature more bread. But Mr. No needs to realize that they incorporate bread into their dishes differently than Panera.
4) This is not a competition - Mr. No doesn't have to convince people NOT to go to Olive Garden in order to convince them to try Panera. There is room in a person's diet for many foods.

Now, I have also made some mistakes in my judgement of Manticora. You see, I tried them once at a "Taste of the Town" type fair, and decided they weren't for me. Here are my mistakes:
1) At such fairs, the food is mass produced, and sits under a heat lamp. As such, the quality sometimes suffers.
2) Not all the restaurant's dishes are offered at a fair like that.
3) The chefs might have been fatigued from the travel, working in the heat, etc., and they probably didn't have all the ingredients and tools they normally use.
4) There is room in MY diet for both Olive Garden and Panera.

Do you see my point?

 

[AngraRULES]

Ok, new question of the thread...

Why is it that prog fans (especially the most dedicated ones) HAVE to get so god damn defensive over their favorite bands? Also, it seems that they use thesame elaborate thought-process that the bands use to write super fancy and complicated music/concept in an argument.

You're not a better fan than everybody else just because you like the band so much and you defend them to death. It's fine that people don't like what you like, and it's fine that people criticize it as long as the criticism makes sense.

 

[AngraRULES]

Sorry if that came across too harshly (to anyone but Mr. No). I'd like to try to explain a little better by way of a food analogy: I find food analogies work quite well with music for whatever reason.
So Mr. No is a big fan of Panera Bread. He LOVES their food, and loves to talk about what wonderful bread they make. He decides one day to visit The Olive Garden and orders this steak-gorgonzola pasta dish. When it is brought out to him, with a couple small pieces of bread on the side, he storms out of that restaurant in a fury, never to return. He tells as many people as he can about his experience, making sure to mention the lack of bread and how it does not measure up to Panera. He is making the following mistakes:
1) The Olive Garden never claimed to be the world's leading experts on bread - they are more about the pasta.
2) The bread there is actually not bad at all and many people like it, and Mr. No might have as well, had he given it a chance.
3) The Olive Garden has many dishes, many of which might feature more bread. But Mr. No needs to realize that they incorporate bread into their dishes differently than Panera.
4) This is not a competition - Mr. No doesn't have to convince people NOT to go to Olive Garden in order to convince them to try Panera. There is room in a person's diet for many foods.

Now, I have also made some mistakes in my judgement of Manticora. You see, I tried them once at a "Taste of the Town" type fair, and decided they weren't for me. Here are my mistakes:
1) At such fairs, the food is mass produced, and sits under a heat lamp. As such, the quality sometimes suffers.
2) Not all the restaurant's dishes are offered at a fair like that.
3) The chefs might have been fatigued from the travel, working in the heat, etc., and they probably didn't have all the ingredients and tools they normally use.
4) There is room in MY diet for both Olive Garden and Panera.

Do you see my point?

The only thing I see is that your post made me hungry. I like the Olive Garden, Panera and food from fairs...

 

[Justin G]

Do you see my point?

No.

OK, yes, but I still think you're too worked up over it. Dude doesn't like Seventh Wonder. He doesn't have to, and he certainly doesn't have to justify it beyond a "not my thing." Likewise for you and Manticora (and I'm with you on that one).

All I'm trying to say is that it's OK to like this kind of music and still bitch about it. No band has earned unconditional love.

 

[dtguitarfan]

Why am I passionate about defending bands like Seventh Wonder:
1) It's not necessary to come in here and tell people "don't bother with them." That's my number one point of my analogy.
2) It's one thing to try and convince someone not to listen to Nickelback - they are making a fantastic amount of money and can take the hit. What's more, they're played on the radio all the time and, chances are, the guy you're trying to convince will hear them at some point anyway. Seventh Wonder is NOT making money like that. They are struggling artists who have to work real jobs to pay the bills, and I hate to see someone trying to convince people NOT to give them a chance. Yeah, tell people Manticora is awesome - that's fine. But you don't have to tear another band down to do that.

 

[Justin G]

Why am I passionate about defending bands like Seventh Wonder:
1) It's not necessary to come in here and tell people "don't bother with them." That's my number one point of my analogy.
2) It's one thing to try and convince someone not to listen to Nickelback - they are making a fantastic amount of money and can take the hit. What's more, they're played on the radio all the time and, chances are, the guy you're trying to convince will hear them at some point anyway. Seventh Wonder is NOT making money like that. They are struggling artists who have to work real jobs to pay the bills, and I hate to see someone trying to convince people NOT to give them a chance. Yeah, tell people Manticora is awesome - that's fine. But you don't have to tear another band down to do that.

A band's financial success (or lack thereof) is irrelevant. I don't need to check out Sonata Arctica's balance sheet before I say that their last few albums sucked. Their struggle or success doesn't change my view of the music.

Hypothetical: Someone starts a thread asking about a band you don't like, and I mean really don't like. Do you share your opinion?

 

[AngraRULES]

Why am I passionate about defending bands like Seventh Wonder:
1) It's not necessary to come in here and tell people "don't bother with them." That's my number one point of my analogy.
2) It's one thing to try and convince someone not to listen to Nickelback - they are making a fantastic amount of money and can take the hit. What's more, they're played on the radio all the time and, chances are, the guy you're trying to convince will hear them at some point anyway. Seventh Wonder is NOT making money like that. They are struggling artists who have to work real jobs to pay the bills, and I hate to see someone trying to convince people NOT to give them a chance. Yeah, tell people Manticora is awesome - that's fine. But you don't have to tear another band down to do that.

Sorry, but 1 and 2 don't strike me as real reasons "why you're passionate about defending them". But whatever, if that's why you are so defensive, than maybe you should know that some of the guys in SW make really good money in their day jobs and are pretty happy about their lives.

 

[dtguitarfan]

A band's financial success (or lack thereof) is irrelevant. I don't need to check out Sonata Arctica's balance sheet before I say that their last few albums sucked. Their struggle or success doesn't change my view of the music.

Hypothetical: Someone starts a thread asking about a band you don't like, and I mean really don't like. Do you share your opinion?

If I was asked directly I would say something to the effect of "eh, it wasn't for me." But I'd leave it at that. I'd rather talk about bands I like than ones I don't, and there have been far too many cases where I have judged a band quite harshly, and later on, because good friends loved them and I wanted to understand why, I went back to them and that band became a huge favorite of mine. This has happened to me so many times that I try very hard lately to keep my judgements less harsh, more fair sounding, and leave room for people to see that it's just my opinion and other people might see merits that I don't. Am I an expert in practicing that? No. But it is something I'm striving for, especially now that I'm writing reviews for a couple websites and receiving free promotional materials. See, I really like getting free stuff and I want it to keep coming.... I hate assigning a star rating in my reviews and wish I could omit that part, but so far I've never gone below 3.5 out of 5, and if I felt like I wanted to go lower than that I'd probably tell the necessary parties that I'd like to decline writing that review. I don't take pleasure in being over critical but try to see the merits in every album I review. And because I've been taking this approach I've found myself enjoying many things I think I would not have in years past.

 

[AngraRULES]

Am I an expert in practicing that? No. But it is something I'm striving for, especially now that I'm writing reviews for a couple websites and receiving free promotional materials. See, I really like getting free stuff and I want it to keep coming.... I hate assigning a star rating in my reviews and wish I could omit that part, but so far I've never gone below 3.5 out of 5, and if I felt like I wanted to go lower than that I'd probably tell the necessary parties that I'd like to decline writing that review. I don't take pleasure in being over critical but try to see the merits in every album I review. And because I've been taking this approach I've found myself enjoying many things I think I would not have in years past.

Wow...Zero credibility. At least you admit it.

You're exactly what is wrong with "heavy metal journalism" these days. It's because of people like you that the real heavy metal journalists get no respect.

Pathetic. Absolutely fucking pathetic.

 

[dtguitarfan]

Wow...Zero credibility. At least you admit it.

You're exactly what is wrong with "heavy metal journalism" these days. It's because of people like you that the real heavy metal journalists get no respect.

Pathetic. Absolutely fucking pathetic.

Now who's not respecting someone else's opinion?

I have been honest in my reviews. But because I go into each album trying to understand why someone might enjoy this instead of predefining what I think should be there, I usually end up having a more positive outlook than someone who has a bunch of expectations before they begin listening.

 

[Justin G]

If I was asked directly I would say something to the effect of "eh, it wasn't for me." But I'd leave it at that. I'd rather talk about bands I like than ones I don't, and there have been far too many cases where I have judged a band quite harshly, and later on, because good friends loved them and I wanted to understand why, I went back to them and that band became a huge favorite of mine. This has happened to me so many times that I try very hard lately to keep my judgements less harsh, more fair sounding, and leave room for people to see that it's just my opinion and other people might see merits that I don't. Am I an expert in practicing that? No. But it is something I'm striving for, especially now that I'm writing reviews for a couple websites and receiving free promotional materials. See, I really like getting free stuff and I want it to keep coming.... I hate assigning a star rating in my reviews and wish I could omit that part, but so far I've never gone below 3.5 out of 5, and if I felt like I wanted to go lower than that I'd probably tell the necessary parties that I'd like to decline writing that review. I don't take pleasure in being over critical but try to see the merits in every album I review. And because I've been taking this approach I've found myself enjoying many things I think I would not have in years past.

Wait, you're a reviewer??? I can buy the "sunshine and light" approach from a well-meaning fan, but if you're going to review you need to be as honest as possible, even if that means a negative review. One of the joys of reviewing is letting readers know about great new albums and bands, but that also comes with an obligation to call out the bad albums we're given.

Oh, and if you're inflating your ratings and reviews just to keep the gravy train of free music coming, that's simply not ethical and completely undermines your credibility.

 

[AngraRULES]

Now who's not respecting someone else's opinion?

I have been honest in my reviews. But because I go into each album trying to understand why someone might enjoy this instead of predefining what I think should be there, I usually end up having a more positive outlook than someone who has a bunch if expectations before they begin listening.

What?!?!? Are you friggin' serious?!?!?!

You have been honest, yes. You admitted that you are pretty much doing it for the free stuff and wants it to keep on coming. You were honest when you said you'd rather NOT review an album than give it a bad rating.

Do I really need to say anything else?

 

[dtguitarfan]

Wait, you're a reviewer??? I can buy the "sunshine and light" approach from a well-meaning fan, but if you're going to review you need to be as honest as possible, even if that means a negative review. One of the joys of reviewing is letting readers know about great new albums and bands, but that also comes with an obligation to call out the bad albums we're given.

I've gotten a couple albums where the production was lacking a bit, but as I listened I thought "man, listen to that guitarist go! And what a tight composition!" Now, I could have chosen to slam the band for releasing this travesty because of the production like many would do, but I saw other merits, and so I chose to take a positive tone while also mentioning the weaknesses I noticed. Almost every band has strengths and weaknesses and if you spend too much time looking for their faults you'll be blinded to their strengths. Also, what I'm trying to get at is that all too often people judge based on their expectations. Like "that artist released a sculpture and I wanted another painting from him!" When you take each work of art for what it is and try to see its merits rather than placing your expectations of what that work of art should be, art is a more enjoyable experience.

 

[dtguitarfan]

What?!?!? Are you friggin' serious?!?!?!

You have been honest, yes. You admitted that you are pretty much doing it for the free stuff and wants it to keep on coming. You were honest when you said you'd rather NOT review an album than give it a bad rating.

Do I really need to say anything else?

Oh, for cryin' out loud - look, when I agreed to write for these websites I was asked what I like to begin with. So more often than not, what is given to me are albums that I'd probably like anyways. But a couple times I've been given spacey psychedelic rock kind of things, and to be honest, that's not my thing. But instead of going into the album with a bad attitude I gave it a shot and enjoyed it, and said nice things...then gave it 3.5 stars because it's not my thing and I wouldn't highly recommend it to people who are fans of the things I'm fans of. It's an honest approach that doesn't take an unnecessarily critical approach.

 

[Justin G]

I've gotten a couple albums where the production was lacking a bit, but as I listened I thought "man, listen to that guitarist go! And what a tight composition!" Now, I could have chosen to slam the band for releasing this travesty because of the production like many would do, but I saw other merits, and so I chose to take a positive tone while also mentioning the weaknesses I noticed. Almost every band has strengths and weaknesses and if you spend too much time looking for their faults you'll be blinded to their strengths. Also, what I'm trying to get at is that all too often people judge based on their expectations. Like "that artist released a sculpture and I wanted another painting from him!" When you take each work of art for what it is and try to see its merits rather than placing your expectations of what that work of art should be, art is a more enjoyable experience.

You'd have been the perfect reviewer for the last few Queensryche albums.

I'm walking away from this one. I'll just say I fundamentally disagree with your approach and am aware that arguing in circles isn't going to change that.

 

[Justin G]

Oh, for cryin' out loud - look, when I agreed to write for these websites I was asked what I like to begin with. So more often than not, what is given to me are albums that I'd probably like anyways. But a couple times I've been given spacey psychedelic rock kind of things, and to be honest, that's not my thing. But instead of going into the album with a bad attitude I gave it a shot and enjoyed it, and said nice things...then gave it 3.5 stars because it's not my thing and I wouldn't highly recommend it to people who are fans of the things I'm fans of. It's an honest approach that doesn't take an unnecessarily critical approach.

See, now this I can understand.

 

[Metal_Camden]

 

[AngraRULES]

I've gotten a couple albums where the production was lacking a bit, but as I listened I thought "man, listen to that guitarist go! And what a tight composition!" Now, I could have chosen to slam the band for releasing this travesty because of the production like many would do, but I saw other merits, and so I chose to take a positive tone while also mentioning the weaknesses I noticed. Almost every band has strengths and weaknesses and if you spend too much time looking for their faults you'll be blinded to their strengths. Also, what I'm trying to get at is that all too often people judge based on their expectations. Like "that artist released a sculpture and I wanted another painting from him!" When you take each work of art for what it is and try to see its merits rather than placing your expectations of what that work of art should be, art is a more enjoyable experience.

I can't believe that you're standing up for your "journalistic approach" and defending your "ways". I seriously can't believe it... No wonder serious music journalists/reviewers get no respect these days...

 

[dtguitarfan]

See, now this I can understand.

THANK YOU. Sheesh, I'm trying to turn over a new leaf and be less of an over critical jerk and I get jumped on for not being an over critical jerk. But from what I've seen, there's plenty of that out there to go around - you don't need me to get that and I'm actually finding life more enjoyable as I try to take this approach to other areas of life.

 

[dtguitarfan]

I can't believe that you're standing up for your "journalistic approach" and defending your "ways". I seriously can't believe it... No wonder serious music journalists/reviewers get no respect these days...

Hey, Mr. Angra, guess what? When I first heard Angra I hated them. Now they're one of my favorites. Wanna tell me my approach of taking music for what it is, not measuring one band up against another completely different band, and not placing my expectations up against an artist's work didn't work there?