What is "Prog"?

[General Zod]

Inspired by conversation in Bear’s Here one for ya!!! The best Prog Power Band thread…

What I suppose I'm asking is, what's the difference between music that's “progressive” and music that’s “technical”? I've always just assumed that these terms were being used interchangeably. If not, than can someone define "Prog" for me? Is it just something you know when you hear it or is it something more tangible, that can be characterized?

I don’t think anyone would argue that Vanden Plas is Prog Metal. However, there’s no “progression” in their music as defined by Webster’s; “of, relating to, or characterized by progress”. After all, it would be hard to argue that anything Vanden Plas has done represents musical progress from what Dream Theater, Queensryche, Savatage and Fates Warning had already accomplished.

So, what musical characteristics define the Prog Metal genre beyond being inherently technical?

Zod

P.S. - my comments are in now way meant as a knock on VP. I was just using them as an example.

 

[AngraRULES]

In my opinion, the term "PROG" (in metal) has lost its real meaning. I don't think ProgMetal means necessarily a metal band whos music necessarily progresses. Prog seems to have simply become a "label" for a style of music. Maybe what's "different" can be called Prog by some, I don't know... Prog nowadays seems to be more of a name or title, rather than a descriptive detail of music...

 

[metalprof]

"Prog" means music that is likely to be enjoyed by someone who likes other bands labelled as "prog".

"Progressive" music is one of the worst category names ever invented because by its strict definition, it would mean an entirely new set of bands every year. But we're stuck with it, so we have to use it in the best way possible.

So, I prefer to think of "prog" as just representing a family tree of music that began back when the term "progressive rock" was used (probably correctly) to describe bands that were taking the musical form beyond its regular bounds, like Cream, Yes, Genesis, ELP, King Crimson, etc. Now, certainly, a year or two after they started doing their thing any other band that came along sounding like that was by definition no longer "progressive" - for example, Marillion wasn't really *progressive* but they're still called progressive rock because we'd moved beyond the strict definition and into the family-tree definition, meaning "If you like Genesis, you should like Marillion, too!"

The same thing happened in metal. Perhaps there were early bands that "progressed" metal beyond the usual boundaries. Some might say, for example, Dream Theater did that. But really, DT only did for metal what Yes and others did for rock, so in that sense they weren't really progressive as much as very good at borrowing and incorporating existing influences. But, to make things easy on ourselves, we call them progressive. There is the natural combining of family trees of music - "If you like Yes and King Crimson AND you like heavy music, then you should like Dream Theater!"

So picture "prog" metal as a big family tree of bands linked by common ancestors and merging branches and don't worry so much about what it is *really* supposed to mean!

Ken

 

[Cheiron]

My girlfriend and I discuss this all the time. She'll listen to a band and say 'They are so prog.' And I look at her funny. Her definition of Prog, is anything that feels new. But, at what point is something no longer 'new.' I have seen others here say something along the lines of, "The first album a band releases can be prog, but if the next album sounds similar, it stops being prog."

I don't know.

I use the word prog because people know what I'm talking about. But personally, I prefer to use the term 'Art metal.' In this, I mean the album is more artistically done, with a greater emphasis on skillful abilities, musical theory etc., as opposed to music which is more about umm... pure entertainment?

That said, what is technical? I get confused on this term at times. As I now write some CD reviews, I keep questioning myself if I should use the term. Is technical metal -- math metal, thus only is metal that uses variations on time signatures, with say the guitar playing one signature, and the bass playing another, and they happen to meet up at specific intervals? Or is technical metal... anything that involves a heavy dose of instrumental skill?

In the end, I love progressive music. And what that means to me, is I enjoy listening to artists that try to put out music that has a unique sound, that involves instrumental skill, and that is put together like they actually understand music. This can exist in many... forms including progressive-power metal, progressive-doom, progressive-death, etc.

Heh. In a way 'Progressive Metal' doesn't exist. Dream Theatre, Pain of Salvation, etc. Is it metal? Oh wait. Wrong thread. Then we'd have to start discussing what 'metal' means. Ugh.

Maybe prog... is like pornography.

 

[St Enigma]

My own short definition that I use to explain "progressive rock" for people:

"Prog": Characterized by influences from classical music, use of complicated and layered song structures and lengthy multisectioned compositions. Played usually by musically educated and higly talented professionals, mastering music theory and several instruments.



For a more comprehensive (and long!) definition of "prog" click here and read on.

 

[General Zod]

"Prog" means music that is likely to be enjoyed by someone who likes other bands labelled as "prog".

Agreed.

...don't worry so much about what it is *really* supposed to mean!

I don't worry about it at all. Simply thought it made for good discussion.

Zod

 

[Ascension]

I'll have to agree with Enigma. Prog incorporates alot of different influences...be that classical, jazz, fusion, folk, etc...and in the case of prog metal... metal (dedede). It normally is very technical & the muscicans are very talented. Complex song structures are the norm...odd timing signatures, polyrhythms, etc.
Just because a lead guitar player can play somewhat or borderline technical pieces (Loomis for example)...it does not make him or the band he plays in prog. Some bands have some progressive tendencies which I think they use to hopefully get a bit of a crossover audience. Malmsteen is technical to the extreme, but his music wouldn't fit prog category. He rules the neo classical metal genre...of course, that's a whole other discussion. LOL.

 

[Ascension]

The same thing happened in metal. Perhaps there were early bands that "progressed" metal beyond the usual boundaries. Some might say, for example, Dream Theater did that. But really, DT only did for metal what Yes and others did for rock, so in that sense they weren't really progressive as much as very good at borrowing and incorporating existing influences. But, to make things easy on ourselves, we call them progressive. There is the natural combining of family trees of music - "If you like Yes and King Crimson AND you like heavy music, then you should like Dream Theater!"



Ken

Wouldn't you agree that Yes & DT advanced their genres (rock & metal) to a degree? They brought in different elements that were not being used or not being used extensively to enhance the music. To me...that's progressive.

 

[Cheiron]

Malmsteen was progressive. What is he now? Power-shred? Technical-power metal?

 

[General Zod]

Malmsteen was progressive. What is he now?

Boring.

Zod

 

[Greykiller]

Progressive: Any band that combines heavy metal chords, melodic keyboard work and song lyrics that mean something to someone who is not suffering through puppy love (in other words lyrics that have something to do with real issues).

I can think of a lot of bands that do one or the other...but cannot think of any bands that do all three who would fall very far outside of that definition.

There are other types of Metal that I would not consider the same:

Heavy metal chords with melodic keyboard work and mostly cookie vox, are cookie metal.

Heavy metal chords with melodic keyboards and mostly ooh baby baby I love you lyrics is ghey metal.

Heavy metal cords, melodic keyboards, and kickass lyrics is Symphony X metal.

 

[Ascension]

I have to agree. Even though Malmsteen's guitar work still amazes me at times, his music hasn't went anywhere in years. He has contracted the Tom Scholz syndrome. He only listens to his stuff so his stuff never changes.

 

[Rider of Theli]

Malmsteen was progressive. What is he now?

large...?

 

[Unca Kev]

For a more comprehensive (and long!) definition of "prog" click here and read on.

When I had wondered exactly what "prog" was, in the past, I read that as well. When searching again for this thread, I found this too:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_rock

But here "technical" is a sub-genre of "prog":

http://www.progpages.com/index.asp?page=whatsprog.htm

It seems that "prog" is somewhat a subjective and general term. Trying to nail down a definitve, universal definition, would be about as hard as achieving peace in the middle east!

 

[VenomGA]

large...?

Yngwie was not large at all on his last tour at the end of last year

 

[edgeofthorns]

I feel like the "prog" label is thrown about at will pretty much. To me prog means different than the normal or status quo so to speak. Maybe a better term would be to refer to bands like Dream Theater, Fates Warning, Symphony X, and Redemption would be "alternative metal". Why? Because it's the alternative to what's accepted by the masses as normal or typical.

The thing is, in Europe you couldn't consider those bands as alternative, because they're so well accepted over there. Hmmmmmm......very interesting!

 

[Bear]

Where's DT Jesus? I still have his Definition of Prog by Matthew A Rink that I got at the Portnoy forum years ago!! I still think its the most comprehensive meaning that I have ever read.

Bear

 

[Cheiron]

Where's DT Jesus? I still have his Definition of Prog by Matthew A Rink that I got at the Portnoy forum years ago!! I still think its the most comprehensive meaning that I have ever read.

Bear

Google gods win.

http://www.progpages.com/index.asp?page=whatsprog.htm

 

[Thorn23TX]

All I can say is that there better be an answer found soon or else Glenn isn't going to know who to book for next year! :Spin:

I agree with the other posters that a definition for the term "prog" has gotten lost over the years... I always thought it referred to bands/artists who display technical proficiency on their instruments - generally as a result of a formal musical education/training - and push the boudaries of music. Now I think the term is just used (in the metal community) to describe a band that contain elements of Dream Theater or (old) Queensrÿche.

 

[General Zod]

Progressive: Any band that combines heavy metal chords, melodic keyboard work and song lyrics that mean something to someone who is not suffering through puppy love (in other words lyrics that have something to do with real issues).

Are keys mandatory? If so, than bands like Zero Hour and Spiral Architect wouldn't qualify as Prog.

Zod