booB
Señor Member
It seems to me that a woman playing an instrument in a metal band is (to borrow your expression) gimmicky enough that she will be able to find a job pretty easily, even if Floor won't hire her.
Floor Jansen wants only men in her band
- Thread starter adaher
- Start date
It seems to me that a woman playing an instrument in a metal band is (to borrow your expression) gimmicky enough that she will be able to find a job pretty easily, even if Floor won't hire her.
My wife wishes there were more bands with women who weren't there primarily because of their sex appeal and were doing something other than singing. To be honest, there aren't too many out there and we need more of them out there.
Exploding Ned
Member
The one time I saw her at the PP soundcheck, she certainly impressed me as a talented musician who was obviously in charge of the band, and doing a good job of that. And while I respect everyone's reply here... and I agree metal needs more female musicians not just singers... I say whatever she wants in her new band is fine. It's her project isn't it?
Again, is it generally okay to discriminate on the basis of sex if it's your business? Because let's not mince words, this is a business and she's hiring people to do a job. They will all be working for her. I fail to see how this is different from any other business. Either morally or legally.
Ned, do you have a "no women" policy for your business? How would that fly if you did? Do performers get a special dispensation that merchandise sellers do not? Is it about how much money is made in the business(I'm sure Floor makes more than most small independent CD sellers)? Is it about desire to work with a particular sex? Small business owners don't have those preferences?
Ned, do you have a "no women" policy for your business? How would that fly if you did? Do performers get a special dispensation that merchandise sellers do not? Is it about how much money is made in the business(I'm sure Floor makes more than most small independent CD sellers)? Is it about desire to work with a particular sex? Small business owners don't have those preferences?
AMBR
Metal Grandma
I want only men in my band. Too bad I can't sing.
What a useless thing to argue. She should be able to construct the band around her anyway she wants. A band is more than music. It's a feeling, look, vibe etc. If she gets her best vibe off of working with guys, more power to her.
What a useless thing to argue. She should be able to construct the band around her anyway she wants. A band is more than music. It's a feeling, look, vibe etc. If she gets her best vibe off of working with guys, more power to her.
Exploding Ned
Member
The only policy I have is to try to have good employees. That's my choice. That works for me, and whatever Floor does seems to work for her. No two businesses are ran exactly the same. Maybe she's more comfortable with no women in her band, just guessing, since I don't really know the reason. Hope I caught your meaning.
All I want to know is why a band business is different from any other business. Would it be okay for the New York Philharmonic Orchestra to have a "men only" policy?
If we're saying that discrimination on the basis of sex is okay in business, then that's fine, it's a coherent opinion even if I don't agree with it.
Some people equate a band with a relationship, but really a band is just a business unless it's a few friends playing together for fun. This is not just a few friends, this is a businesswoman seeking employees in a case where sex has nothing to do with ability. If she doesn't "feel like" working with women, why is that okay for her and not for me or you? Ned, are you saying that if you wanted to discriminate you would be allowed to? I think not unless your business is 100% online.
If we're saying that discrimination on the basis of sex is okay in business, then that's fine, it's a coherent opinion even if I don't agree with it.
Some people equate a band with a relationship, but really a band is just a business unless it's a few friends playing together for fun. This is not just a few friends, this is a businesswoman seeking employees in a case where sex has nothing to do with ability. If she doesn't "feel like" working with women, why is that okay for her and not for me or you? Ned, are you saying that if you wanted to discriminate you would be allowed to? I think not unless your business is 100% online.
Exploding Ned
Member
What I'm saying is, I like to choose the best person for the job. So I would never go into the "discrimination" mindset anyway. If you want to call Floor's decision discrimination fine. Maybe it is. Or maybe she knows she'd clash with another female personality in the band, and for that sake she chooses to not risk the band's ability to perform/record as well. Like I said before, I don't know her reasoning behind the policy. I get your point, and I respect it, but you'd probably have to ask Floor to get a definite answer to your concern.
The NY Philharmonic Orchestra would likely fall under US laws for Federal Equal Employment Opportunity. Floor does not.
Revamp would fall under Dutch laws, and many bands are set up as corporations. Is this Floor's personal project, or is Revamp going to be a business with marketing, booking, etc.?
Sir Exar Kun
Member
It's probably reasonable to compare this almost to movie casting, though. These positions are "roles", which can be filled based on certain pre-defined criteria. Much as they won't cast Nicole Kidman to play Bilbo Baggins in "The Hobbit", maybe Floor has a certain vision of the image she wants in her band.
Again, not saying right or wrong...... But there are certain positions where gender bias is unavoidable.
On the flip side, what this tells me is that image is more important than substance in this band, which is concerning.
Again, not saying right or wrong...... But there are certain positions where gender bias is unavoidable.
On the flip side, what this tells me is that image is more important than substance in this band, which is concerning.
Perhaps. But it seems to me that Revamp is an idea that showcases Floor Jansen, and therefore the image of her band won't be much of a factor.
I'm actually a bit shocked by some of the responses here. Are some of you actually saying that many women just can't work with other women? If that's true, that would definitely reduce my respect for the opposite sex. Males certainly have their ego clashes, whether in the workplace or in bands, but it doesn't make them swear off working with males as a general policy. If you don't like the guy you're working with, you go get another guy. I don't understand this concept of "I don't like the girl I'm working with, so I just won't work with girls."
Or am I misunderstanding something?
I'm actually a bit shocked by some of the responses here. Are some of you actually saying that many women just can't work with other women? If that's true, that would definitely reduce my respect for the opposite sex. Males certainly have their ego clashes, whether in the workplace or in bands, but it doesn't make them swear off working with males as a general policy. If you don't like the guy you're working with, you go get another guy. I don't understand this concept of "I don't like the girl I'm working with, so I just won't work with girls."
Or am I misunderstanding something?
AngraRULES
Member
My God, people are taking this thread to a whole new level here... Talking about actual discrimination laws and shit? Gimme a fucking break..
This is one of the most useless arguments ever on this board, in my opinion.
This is one of the most useless arguments ever on this board, in my opinion.
Leaving the law aside, why is it okay morally? As I said, if you believe it's okay to discriminate as a general matter if it's "your" business, then that's one thing. But if you believe it's okay for Floor to do it but not, say, another businessperson, then I'd like to know what the rationale is behind your thinking.
I'm not trying to make a legal issue of it, just trying to figure out why Floor wouldn't want women in her band, and so far the answers make Floor seem pretty catty,and those are from the people who are on her side!
I'm not trying to make a legal issue of it, just trying to figure out why Floor wouldn't want women in her band, and so far the answers make Floor seem pretty catty,and those are from the people who are on her side!
I've tried to ignore the thread completely. And the only reason I brought up hiring laws in the US is because he asked why it wasn't okay for a US organization but is okay for a band.
But now that I'm in here I might as well rant.
If you think for a moment that most of the bands looking for members or needing replacements don't have a certain gender in mind, you're kidding yourself. It's Floor's band and I don't give a fuck who she wants in her band as long as they can play their instrument at the end of the day. If she has a certain image for her band, that's her prerogative. Just like I don't give a fuck that when Vibeke left Tristania, they specifically said they were looking for a new female singer. Or that Tuomas is quoted as saying "the new singer will be chosen not only for her singing skills. She must also be beautiful, charismatic and she must possess a great deal of self-esteem."
But I guess people don't raise their eyes at that since it's okay when they're adding someone the same sex as the person who left. Or is only okay when it's the singer?
Anyway, I'm done here. This is such a stupid thread.
AMBR
Metal Grandma
Amazing how much effort was put into discussing this non-issue on a Friday morning.Bands can be more than music. Image is often part of the art form. Developing the look and feel of the band is legitimate to the business. If having an all male band gives Floor the feel and look she wants, then that's what she should go for. Taking this to a moral or legal level is just silly.
Folks,
This is called a "publicity stunt". She did this so people would start talking about her again, which would make her relevant again.
This is called a "publicity stunt". She did this so people would start talking about her again, which would make her relevant again.
AngraRULES
Member
So adaher, according to your "moral issue", if someone owns a strip club and he only wants to hire female strippers, he is morally discriminating men?
How immoral.
How immoral.
So adaher, according to your "moral issue", if someone owns a strip club and he only wants to hire female strippers, he is morally discriminating men?
Actually, what I'm looking for is a reason why she would want only men, moral issues aside.
There's a reason you would want only female strippers, since that's what your clientele want to see. There is also a reason why you would prefer a male or female singer, since males and females have different voices and you hire what fits the music you're writing.
But for the people playing the instruments, it doesn't make a difference. Nor does the image make a difference, because Revamp is clearly a Floor Jansen showcase and no one is really going to care about the band unless she gets some really high profile names.
The most plausible reasons for why she would only want men were listed in the beginning of the thread. And I found those answers a bit shocking because of the implications. If BS, it reflects badly on those who think girls can't get along. But if it's true, what does that say about many women? Are many women really that awful?
Actually, what I'm looking for is a reason why she would want only men, moral issues aside.
There's a reason you would want only female strippers, since that's what your clientele want to see. There is also a reason why you would prefer a male or female singer, since males and females have different voices and you hire what fits the music you're writing.
But for the people playing the instruments, it doesn't make a difference. Nor does the image make a difference, because Revamp is clearly a Floor Jansen showcase and no one is really going to care about the band unless she gets some really high profile names.
The most plausible reasons for why she would only want men were listed in the beginning of the thread. And I found those answers a bit shocking because of the implications. If BS, it reflects badly on those who think girls can't get along. But if it's true, what does that say about many women? Are many women really that awful?
Harvester
The Promoter
How about additional travel expenses? Considering Floor's status (and that is is her band), she would get a private hotel room (and maybe even dressing room). The guys can all share rooms, etc. Bring in another female and another room would be required for privacy.
That may not seem like much, but it adds up on the road where every cent counts.
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