Is a tiny label better than no label?

[Stingray11214]

Folks;

Many times I come in here, and I see all these bands who have made CD's. They say you can purchase it anywhere and everywhere. However, when I walk into a Virgin or HMV, and mention "ABC is on the XYZ label" these people look at me crosseyed. Now, before the lynch mob forms to hunt me down and kill me, the question I have is what does a tiny label really do for you that you cannot do on your own? I mean, we all know who InsideOut Nightmare, The End are. But, neither of these are Century Media, and CM is not Roadrunner. So, what I am asking is if the tiny label, in essence, really a "stepping stone" to the big boys, or is it the last stop for a bar band, or are you just better off going it alone.

I hope nobody takes offense. I am only curious.

Peace,
Ray C.

 

[booB]

Basically, they're supposed to deal with the business end of distributing the cd, so that the band doesn't have to do it. A small label doesn't generally have the distro of a major (although I've seen Inside Out cds in a lot of mainstream stores), but they DO usually have more contacts than many bands do themselves, and it can be a good idea for a band with no business-savvy members.

 

[3DimensionalAperture]

Folks;

Many times I come in here, and I see all these bands who have made CD's. They say you can purchase it anywhere and everywhere. However, when I walk into a Virgin or HMV, and mention "ABC is on the XYZ label" these people look at me crosseyed. Now, before the lynch mob forms to hunt me down and kill me, the question I have is what does a tiny label really do for you that you cannot do on your own? I mean, we all know who InsideOut Nightmare, The End are. But, neither of these are Century Media, and CM is not Roadrunner. So, what I am asking is if the tiny label, in essence, really a "stepping stone" to the big boys, or is it the last stop for a bar band, or are you just better off going it alone.

I hope nobody takes offense. I am only curious.

Peace,
Ray C.

Inside Out and The End both have worldwide distro. The End Records in particular is known for their distribution, so it's pretty easy to find all their releases in major retaillers. Nightmare is a different story. That's all limited online distribution and you can not find those records in major CD shops.


What it boils down to is touring. Big or small, a label that puts their bands on tour is a label you want your band to be on. End of story.

 

[Diabolik]

distibution is better than any tour. Bad disto= no one buying your CD.
My brothers band, who is a punk band, has a label who is small but has incredible distro...thier CD's are in Best Buys, Virgin Megastores and used to be at Tower Records. The label itself isnt that good but they some how got with a great distributor.
A label with great touring connections and great distro is a great label. Also you have to take into effect who else is on the label. I have seen many bands get angry at a good label for not getting enough push. I see bands jump ship to other labels because why be band #7 when you can be band one or two.
I guess that it depends on what you want as a band.

 

[3DimensionalAperture]

distibution is better than any tour. Bad disto= no one buying your CD.

Completely wrong. You couldn't be more wrong if you tried. You don't need to have your CD distributed to the major retailers to sell well. If you don't promote the CD, it doesn't matter how good your distribution is, it won't sell. A band who tours alot will usually make far more profit in the long run, especially if the label pays for the costs.

Proof of this is why we don't see bands like Pagan's Mind or Threshold getting as big as they should be, yet we see Into Eternity getting bigger and bigger every year. The former don't tour, the only time they leave their countries is for Prog Power! A band like Into Eternity however, tours heavily and they end up making a nice chunk of merch money as a result of it. Are they rich? Hell no. Does that kind of touring afford them enough to get by? Probably.

 

[Diabolik]

Completely wrong. You couldn't be more wrong if you tried. You don't need to have your CD distributed to the major retailers to sell well. If you don't promote the CD, it doesn't matter how good your distribution is, it won't sell. A band who tours alot will usually make far more profit in the long run, especially if the label pays for the costs.

Proof of this is why we don't see bands like Pagan's Mind or Threshold getting as big as they should be, yet we see Into Eternity getting bigger and bigger every year. The former don't tour, the only time they leave their countries is for Prog Power! A band like Into Eternity however, tours heavily and they end up making a nice chunk of merch money as a result of it. Are they rich? Hell no. Does that kind of touring afford them enough to get by? Probably.

touring helps...I totally agree, but if people cant get the CD....that is not good. Touring can also hurt you too. I know lots of people who are totally sick of Into Eternity because of them being on so many tours. There are so many ways to look at this. Touring can make you a profit, but you need to sell your merch on tour, if not, you are really not getting a profit...most smaller bands pay for transportation, food, and so on. It isnt free.

I also agree with your point..promotion is a major thing. I stated that earlier with bands leaving labels for not getting a push when a disc comes out. Most of the average people who buy CD's get them from larger stores...scary...yes. I talk to lots of people at shows and most have no clue about smaller stores that cater to metal or other genres. They get thier stuff from major chain stores or online now. But the average fan has that out of sight out of mind mentality too, where if the disc is hard to find...they wont look for it. I feel this is where most labels lack. THey drop out releases and then move on to the next. I think this is where the internet really helps. To me the best way to sell an album is the old fashion way....word of mouth. Lookhow many bands have grown in fan base due to great word of mouth.

I dont really see Into Eternity getting bigger. THey will always be that opening act or the band before the main at plays.

 

[metropolisimages]

Its really a combination of things. If you don't tour to support your album, then you will not sell as many cd's. Look at Pantera and Metallica. They practically lived on the road and it payed off. I think the bands that don't do well from touring are either on the wrong tours or they are not liked. Touring is definitely the key to success. Small labels definitely can do more than the average person trying to release on their own. Small labels can usually get you worldwide distro. They can get you press and a PR agent working for you. Sometimes the small labels will offer tour support and help you push your album as well.

You will have a better chance with a small label than no label at all. But touring on top of it will be the key!

Just my 2 cents...

 

[Angrafan]

Insideout is by no means a *tiny* label.

They are a pretty succesfull small label specialized in one genre of music.. they can do a LOT of an artist...
And they don't sign that many new artists anyway.. They usually sign artists that have at least a bit of a name in the scene.. So it's totally different!


Really tiny labels are only good if the band/artist doesn't have the money to even press the CDs.. but if the band has a little bit of cash I'd rather release independently than through a "tiny label".

 

[SyXified]

A small label can provide ONE thing that a band may not be able to pull off on their own:

Connections!

It is as simple as that. We all live in the real world here, and I hope none of us are so fanciful that we still believe in the idea that hard work and quality is all a band needs and if you stick to your guns you will succeed. Often it helps more to know a guy who knows a guy who has sway in the industry. A small label can only really boast one service that the band cannot illicit or learn on their own - having connections into the record industry, which can be invaluable to make the difference in a band breaking into the big time or not. We all have heard the stories of small band A who plays a gig and the president of Atlantic records happens to be there and comes back stage and they are signed and on their way to becoming big band A. But its more than just an unbelievable stroke of luck that the president of Atlantic records was at the gig. There is always someone with CLOUT that recommends a band, and finding these people to back you is all about relationships.

I'd say the best way to approach being signed to a small label is to be very careful in negotiating your contract. Instead of being bound and gagged to them for years, its better to leave yourself outs so you can move up to a larger and more powerful label. If that means taking way less money up front, so be it. A small label wouldn't sign you if they did not think you were a talented artist - and so bank on your artistic success with them. Remember, if you succeed, the label benefits too, and more so from the noteriety and PR than from any financial inflow. So, just make it a contractual thing - if you succeed you'll promote the label. I'd bet anything more labels get big overnight because of the success of an artist than vice versa.

Once you are signed to the small label, find and steal EVERY one of their contacts and make them your own. Have diner with this guy and that guy, find out who THEY know, make friends (or fake friends) with them all. Proceed on in this fashion until you have milked the label of every single contact they have so that if you and the label split, those relationships would remain in tact.

You mentioned in the outset of this topic the notion of 'what can a small label do for you that you cannot do yourself'. Think of it this way, what can a large label do for you that you cannot do yourself? Large labels provide the same functions that small labels do - they just have BETTER distro, and BETTER marketing, etc. But it is still all stuff you could do yourself...IF you had connections. The reason you seek a large label is because they have more and better connections than the small label. Starting with a small label is just a stepwise way of getting to these connections and assembling the network that will ultimately be instrumental to your success. In the end, you should be in a position where you are running the show - you can book your own tour and do your own marketing because you know the right people to make it happen and they know you. Now, some artists outsource these jobs to a business manager and a tour manager, and basically what they are doing is just paying one connection for managing multiple connections. This helps make an elaborate job a lot simpler. Some artists even let their manager make all the decision for them - that makes their job a LOT simpler, though with each step away from the connections you put more risk on your career, as the loss of one connection can mean the resultant loss of countless connections. But the artist really is the one ultimately in charge. Most chose to sacrifice a great deal of their money and freedom to a large label JUST to get the connections. But the artists who are clever and do a good job of being wary of the business side of things and making the major label's connections their own can, in time, shed the label if they like and still accomplish all the same things the label once offered them.

Remember, people will work with you as an artist if it is mutually beneficial to them. A tour manager profits from putting together a successful tour. A distributor profits for having and using a large distribution network. The beauty is that all the jobs thrive with the success of the artist, and therefore it is in their best interest for the artist to succeed. However, the people who are the best of the best at their jobs, and therefore the ones you want to work with, are inaccessible because they are in such high demand. That is, they are inaccessible until you find the right network of connections that leads to them. Finding the route to these key players is what a small label offers - a chance to make the connections that will lead to better connections. 6 degrees of separation - you can find your way to anyone.

 

[booB]

What it boils down to is touring. Big or small, a label that puts their bands on tour is a label you want your band to be on. End of story.

This is pretty much a moot point, though, with regard to small/indie labels. Most of them can't afford to send their bands on tour, and those that can usually only pick one or two a year. The only advantage of a small label over doing things yourself is distribution/connections, as SyXified said.

 

[ratanda]

Proof of this is why we don't see bands like Pagan's Mind or Threshold getting as big as they should be, yet we see Into Eternity getting bigger and bigger every year. The former don't tour, the only time they leave their countries is for Prog Power!

It lookslike Pagan's Mind (http://www.pagansmind.com/tour.htm) and Threshold (http://www.thinicestudios.com/threshold/touring.htm) do quite a bit of touring. Do you mean touring in the USA?

 

[Michael TEOF]

This argument kind of reminds me of the Great Chicken and the Egg debate. You need CD sales to make money but you need touring to gain a fan base to buy your CDs.

I'm no expert, but I'll chime in on one obvious point. In the age of kids downloading everything for free, I would rather have good distribution than good touring.

Nobody buys merchandise from bands they never heard of (and often times, you can risk losing money). If the kids like the live show, maybe they'll buy the CD if its easy to find. Most likely though, they'll just download it for free. With poor distribution, that means the CD is pretty damn hard to find. Of course they're going to download it. And with low CD sales, the record label will stop the touring funds pretty quick.

All money bands make is from record sales. So I'd say having distribution of your record is probably the more important of the two -- in this age of everyone downloading everything for free.

The Michael

 

[SyXified]

This argument kind of reminds me of the Great Chicken and the Egg debate. You need CD sales to make money but you need touring to gain a fan base to buy your CDs.

I'm no expert, but I'll chime in on one obvious point. In the age of kids downloading everything for free, I would rather have good distribution than good touring.

Nobody buys merchandise from bands they never heard of (and often times, you can risk losing money). If the kids like the live show, maybe they'll buy the CD if its easy to find. Most likely though, they'll just download it for free. With poor distribution, that means the CD is pretty damn hard to find. Of course they're going to download it. And with low CD sales, the record label will stop the touring funds pretty quick.

All money bands make is from record sales. So I'd say having distribution of your record is probably the more important of the two -- in this age of everyone downloading everything for free.

The Michael

Actually, these days bands make better money touring than with CD sales. No matter how good your distro is, free is free. A CD could be hard to find or propped up in a big display at every CD store in America - it still costs money to buy the CD, and its free over the internet. But while you can replicate pretty much everything a CD contains into a free digital format, the live experience of actually being at a show as it happens cannot be so easily replicated.

These days a lot of bands actually scrap the whole distro route because of downloading and instead sell their CDs exclusively at live performances, or, even more radically, they build the price of a CD into the ticket price and simply make it so if you go to a show, you've purchased the CD as well (Prince was the first big name artist to do this).

Live performance and CD sales definitely do have the chicken or the egg thing going for them, that is until you realize that they both occur simultaneously and feed off of each other. It's not about one being the subordinant just to fuel the other 'main' goal - they are just two separate ways of making money with your music that work well in promoting each other. Some people buy the album first and if they like it go to a show, some go to a show and if they like it buy the album - and there is really no good way of telling which order people are going to approach things from.

 

[Jim LotFP]

Actually, these days bands make better money touring than with CD sales.

It depends on the band. At least as of a few years ago it was pretty standard practice for opening bands to have to buy on to tours... and I'm talking on "our" level, not arena-level shows. And then there is the common practice of headliners controlling openers' merch prices so as not to be undercut...

... and all this tour support, and often the money to get the merch made, is funded by the record company and is completely recoupable. So while bands are "making money" out on the road, the record company is really the one cleaning up if they start selling records, since they start profiting long before the band recoups based on their tiny royalty percentage. That's why bands don't make money off of record sales, it's not that there is no money to be made. And if the band is in a situation where you're not the headliner, chances are the label is taking these profits and investing them into a bigger band that can in turn generate a bigger return.

... and then the wave of popularity breaks, all of the "professionals" freak out because there is no more money to keep things going, the bands get dropped and break up rather than facing an audience 1/10th the size it used to be, and the labels move on to other forms of music, and everything rebuilds from scratch until the new bands and labels that started without the expectation of making a dime or having any real audience push themselves into success for the next wave of the cycle.

I think a lot of bands are giving up far too much hoping for the opportunity to ride a temporary wave, but obviously not too many other people think so.

 

[Sonrise]

I can say this from personal experience (actually what I am dealing with now). A problem with a small label is they are unable to give tour support if they would even care to. For example, for my band to go out and even be an opening/support act would cost about $2000/ a day in Europe (and I'm the only one in the US), now I am counting travel, food, lodging,lost wages from day job,etc. It is not very cost effective to do that so that when your starting out it is very tough financially to do that.

However, our label has not done much promotion for us. Which maybe due to the fact of money, time, care factor....I don't know. In this day and age of MySpace, webzines, the forums it can be done fairly easy but as a band you need some to help to the leg work for you, someone who has all the connections and resources; so you can concentrate on the musical aspect of the business. That is why we have hired a management company to work with our label and promote the crap out of the CD (it was the most cost effective way to do it).

So....I think any label is good if they are hungry to do something for you. I would rather be on a smaller label than be $500,000 or more in debt to Sony and be low on there prioirty level (been there too).

We need to continue to bug the retailers to carry our favorite bands. If they are on CM, IO, Nightmare they can be in the big retailers (Best Buy, Circuit City, etc)but the music buyers for the store needs to know that there is a need for those bands

 

[3DimensionalAperture]

It lookslike Pagan's Mind (http://www.pagansmind.com/tour.htm) and Threshold (http://www.thinicestudios.com/threshold/touring.htm) do quite a bit of touring. Do you mean touring in the USA?

13-20 shows a year in Europe isn't "touring". You might as well play no shows at all.


You are all wrong. I'm not trying to come off as some kind of know it all, but the fact of the matter is, if you tour alot, you get your CD sold and it opens more doors to better distribution. Most good distros won't even work with you if you don't play out unless you are signed to a fairly big label. Even if your distribution is limited to online, your CD will sell pretty well if you can play100 + shows a year and have the label pay for it.

If the label is unable to give tour support, don't sign with them. It's very simple.

In this downloading era we live in, distro doesn't really make much difference anymore.

 

[Valarien]

There's a lot to be said on this topic, as you can see, but coming from having been on both the artist and label side of things, perhaps this can sum things up a bit:

Use some common sense.
Do as much research as you can.
Distribution will always create more access, but not necessarily more sales, without exposure.
Sales requires marketing and promotion, which equals exposure.
Marketing and Promotion can involve everything from brick & motar and the online equivilants of coop ads and promotions with retail, distributor, radio, media and touring, none of which can happen without money.
You and your label need to invest, yes invest it's business, time, energy and money, consistantly over a long period of time in most cases to see anything meaningful happen-determination over the long haul is essential or forget about it.
Spending time, energy and money without expertise and or experience, will mean a lot of wasted time, energy and money.

Do everything you can to promote yourself, label or no, but focus on those areas that bring the most return for you time, energy and money.
That's where labels can help, they should have the expertise to know what to do and what not to do. Experienced small to medium sized labels can do this by getting you manufactured, distribution and nominal promotion. Most bands have to handle their own touring with small labels because they don't have the money, or receive limited tour support from mid-sized labels.
Large labels have the money, but can overspend, giving you massive exposure, but massive debt. Large labels are never good for you,unless you've already proven yourself and developed a significant fanbase and sales previously; otherwise, your both looking to lose money. Besides, most larger labels have been cutting rosters with a cleaver over the last several years in the wake of the black plague of illegal P2P that has demolished overall sales in distribution and retail at both B&M and online.

Every single independent artist, band and label I know makes the lion's share of their revenue from monetized sales of products, that's mostly CDs, a little from Merchandise, a little from online sales, with few exceptions. For the vast majority of smaller artists, gigs exist only to support sales of cds/products and cost money or barely break even, and are seen as a promotional expense. The only artists that make money from touring either tour extensively having builit up a fanbase over a long period of time, or are the big boys who play large scale arenas and such.

If your good and you have the will and these resources, and the gods of fortune favor you, you might get somewhere.
If you suck, well good luck to you.

 

[SyXified]

So....I think any label is good if they are hungry to do something for you. I would rather be on a smaller label than be $500,000 or more in debt to Sony and be low on there prioirty level (been there too).

I'm not sure what you are referencing regarding being in debt to a label... a band is NEVER really in debt to a label, a band gets an advance when they sign to make their album and that amount is recoupable, but it is recoupable off of albums sales. It's not like if your album stiffs Sony will start sending you bills. If your advance is $500,000 and you spend it all and then your album makes literally $0, you're off scott free. Any album sales would go to the label until the $500,000 is recouped by the label... but that was free money you got anyway. As long as you don't do something stupid like allow cross collateralization to be written into your contact, its pretty difficult to ever actually become in debt to a label

 

[Jim LotFP]

I'm not sure what you are referencing regarding being in debt to a label... a band is NEVER really in debt to a label, a band gets an advance when they sign to make their album and that amount is recoupable, but it is recoupable off of albums sales. It's not like if your album stiffs Sony will start sending you bills. If your advance is $500,000 and you spend it all and then your album makes literally $0, you're off scott free. Any album sales would go to the label until the $500,000 is recouped by the label... but that was free money you got anyway. As long as you don't do something stupid like allow cross collateralization to be written into your contact, its pretty difficult to ever actually become in debt to a label

Unless they do silly things like refuse to release the new album that's already recorded because they figure the new album won't be more popular and it's time to cut their losses... and even if the band moves on to another label, good luck getting the rights to the back catalog back for re-issues down the road if the label is looking to make up all the money they lost... in these cases it's better to have been on a small label than a large one.

 

[Bodhi]

I hope none of us are so fanciful that we still believe in the idea that hard work and quality is all a band needs and if you stick to your guns you will succeed. Often it helps more to know a guy who knows a guy who has sway in the industry.

The topic my friends is not whether is better to tour or to sell cds, the topic is "is a small label better than no label"

And the answer is :

If you have the connections, you don't need a small label, because they will only take 90% to 50% of the sales and forget your cd, if it sells ok, if it does not, who cares ? they spent a little and gained a little more, the market is satisfied.

If you live on a mountain and recorded your cd with koda brother bear in a cave, well you need even a little help like a micro distribution (on online catalogues or little shops) but even if you find a deal to go into EVERY record store in the planet..... guys cds are really expensive, who would buy yours if you're not WELL ADVERTISED ????

the most important thing in my opinion is ADVERTISEMENT, in italy there are people who are whatever else than artists, everyone of them plays the same chords, the same effects, the same lyrics, and they sell MILLIONS copies ! (we must say that italy is in the mesozoic in musical taste )

Anyway that's because they are well advertised, and this is what a great label does:

- Financial support
- Legal support
- Advertising support
- Distribution support

You only have the last check with a little label.

Anyway, always join the game, if you don't, you can't win