Warner absorbs Roadrunner Records EU and UK, people lose jobs, bands get pissed

[dcowboys311]

Dude, I am not talking about Tribunal Records. There are other labels than Tribunal Records. What happens with Tribunal Records and its bands isn't necessarily what happens with other labels. If they had your level of success nobody would be complaining.

That sucks to hear about JJ but it's not surprising.

 

[TribunalRecords]

No, I do not work for them. However it's not really that hard to see X ALBUM PRESSED OUT OF 1000 UNITS -- SOLD OUT and people looking for it because it's unavailable from other distros, that 1000 were moved. But maybe I'm just dumb. Also, both HHR and NWN are labels AND distros. They are one in the same. And they are not unique.

Deceased was added to the list of bands who release through the small labels, sorry for the confusion. You can check the HHR site if you don't believe me. King is the man. For the record, neither Destroyer 666 nor Blasphemy are American.

And, agreed, you can't compare it to the other models -- because it is DIFFERENT than the other models. Different and it WORKS. Nobody cries about not moving albums because they get moved. Plus, you really can't compare the way things were 15 years ago to the way things are today. If things were the same, we wouldn't be having this discussion!

For clarification, what is different? that you as a consumer need to go to a small distro to get your stuff? That was Relapse 15 years ago. In the basement of a Christmas Shoppe in Lancaster, PA. they sold all biggest underground stuff, while being a somewhat underground label. NWN is just following in Relapse's footsteps.

Being underground and selling records DIY style through distros like NWN is not new or different at all, maybe you weren't buying records 15 years ago but Necropolis and Relapse were BOOMING with distro sales. And my stores was booming was sales of underground metal as well since we bought from them. I guess the only thing that has really changed is people cannot go to stores to find this stuff (like 15 years ago) but they have to shop for it online. other than that cult metal then is still cult metal now, just different bands.

King is the man, he just bought my Deathwish and Ironchrist reissues. Was funny seeing his name come through on Paypal. haha.

 

[dcowboys311]

For clarification, what is different?

1) Sign to record label, record label owns your music until contract expires. Bands tour and sell cds they buy from the record label at shows, but in return they get promotional budgets, video budgets, tour support, etc. A wealth of investment capital labels have for bands that they wouldn't normally have.

2) DIY Route where the bands fund everything themselves, press and distribute their own music. Pay for video budgets, tour support, ads campaigns, PR firms, etc.

 

[TribunalRecords]

Dude, I am not talking about Tribunal Records. There are other labels than Tribunal Records. What happens with Tribunal Records and its bands isn't necessarily what happens with other labels. If they had your level of success nobody would be complaining.

That sucks to hear about JJ but it's not surprising.

i thought you were merely suggesting i should try that business model and i was saying that i use that business model. haha, my bad.

 

[TribunalRecords]

1) Sign to record label, record label owns your music until contract expires. Bands tour and sell cds they buy from the record label at shows, but in return they get promotional budgets, video budgets, tour support, etc. A wealth of investment capital labels have for bands that they wouldn't normally have.

2) DIY Route where the bands fund everything themselves, press and distribute their own music. Pay for video budgets, tour support, ads campaigns, PR firms, etc.

So, for example, does NWN not sign contracts with it's bands therefore owning their music? or do the bands just work in conjunction with NWN and press the music as demand sees fit? That model works for their level it seems, but i also assume they aren't paying for the band's recording sessions and such. kind of more of a partnership.

 

[Stingray11214]

Not sure, I didn't sell Roadrunner, Cees did so i wouldn't know how much money he got for the 73.5% stake in RR. He may have profited enough to start a new label, but considering the 30 years he put in with RR he just walk away.

Get real! Cees did not walk away, Cees got bounced. This is what happens in a takeover. Access, as I said before, is a Russian-owned answer to Bain Capital. There was no way in Hell that Cees was going to be allowed to exist in RR. Why? Because he and all those who were canned remember the "good ol' days". That, my friend, is not conducive to what a new owner wishes to do. That is to make WMG as a whole to be profitable.

Now, this is not to say that RR is not profitable. However, WMG, in its original takeover felt that they could use the network that RR rode on to reach even more fans. Now that the takeover is complete, and Access bought the whole enchilada, it is time to do with RR what probably has long been intended: Fold the parts into Atlantic and Elektra, and drop most of those bands that barely make a dent in the USA market. Dream Theater, Rush and Nickelback will probably be safe. Bands like Delain (Who I think has been dropped already) Opeth, and Airbourne? Not so much.

Look at what I said up above, and also add why Cees probably accepted the money in the first place. Maybe he was getting tired of all the artists' prima-donna nonsense. Like they think that they are Iron Maiden or Metallica, they want the world. Maybe Cees took it to look forward to his retirement? But, the reality is that I do not think he is/was naive enough to think that he was going to last forever once the money changed hands.

Now, to derail the thread again, I have long believed that the way to save the music industry is to go back to its past: Make the industry Single-driven again. The reason why people download is because they want that one great song in a CD, and refuse to pay $16 to buy a whole steaming pile of dog shit to get that one song. This has long been a problem with the industry. There are times when I liked one song off an album, but I cannot bear to hear the rest. So, if you gave that person the option of buying a cheap single and a B-Side, you will still push the band. And, if they play their CD live, and people like what they hear, the might buy the whole CD. That is how it was back in the day. So, instead of bands whining about it, they should look to push their singles a lot harder than the actual CD. Let their shows push the CD.

My 1 Piso's worth (Rate of exchange 44 Phil Peso's = 1 US Dollar. 1 Piso = 2 Cents)

 

[TribunalRecords]

Get real! Cees did not walk away, Cees got bounced. This is what happens in a takeover. Access, as I said before, is a Russian-owned answer to Bain Capital. There was no way in Hell that Cees was going to be allowed to exist in RR. Why? Because he and all those who were canned remember the "good ol' days". That, my friend, is not conducive to what a new owner wishes to do. That is to make WMG as a whole to be profitable.

Now, this is not to say that RR is not profitable. However, WMG, in its original takeover felt that they could use the network that RR rode on to reach even more fans. Now that the takeover is complete, and Access bought the whole enchilada, it is time to do with RR what probably has long been intended: Fold the parts into Atlantic and Elektra, and drop most of those bands that barely make a dent in the USA market. Dream Theater, Rush and Nickelback will probably be safe. Bands like Delain (Who I think has been dropped already) Opeth, and Airbourne? Not so much.

Look at what I said up above, and also add why Cees probably accepted the money in the first place. Maybe he was getting tired of all the artists' prima-donna nonsense. Like they think that they are Iron Maiden or Metallica, they want the world. Maybe Cees took it to look forward to his retirement? But, the reality is that I do not think he is/was naive enough to think that he was going to last forever once the money changed hands.

Now, to derail the thread again, I have long believed that the way to save the music industry is to go back to its past: Make the industry Single-driven again. The reason why people download is because they want that one great song in a CD, and refuse to pay $16 to buy a whole steaming pile of dog shit to get that one song. This has long been a problem with the industry. There are times when I liked one song off an album, but I cannot bear to hear the rest. So, if you gave that person the option of buying a cheap single and a B-Side, you will still push the band. And, if they play their CD live, and people like what they hear, the might buy the whole CD. That is how it was back in the day. So, instead of bands whining about it, they should look to push their singles a lot harder than the actual CD. Let their shows push the CD.

My 1 Piso's worth (Rate of exchange 44 Phil Peso's = 1 US Dollar. 1 Piso = 2 Cents)

Sorry you had to go off on this tirade, but my comment about Cees walking away from starting a new label, not RR. yes, he got fired but i believe in the press it said he was "stepping down" which was probably him being allowed to save face.

 

[TribunalRecords]

Dream Theater, Rush and Nickelback will probably be safe

hahaha, ya think? DT and Rush were only sent to Roadrunner because of target marketing, they were always under the same umbrella. Nickelback can do whatever the f*ck they want. they are biggest rock band on the planet. hahaha.

 

[AeonicSlumber]

Rush was probably sent to RR because Warner didn't know what to do with them, but DT actually wanted to get away from Warner and signed with RR before they got bought by them. They were talking to Sony too among all the other majors.

 

[Stingray11214]

Rush was probably sent to RR because Warner didn't know what to do with them, but DT actually wanted to get away from Warner and signed with RR before they got bought by them. They were talking to Sony too among all the other majors.

Actually, DT signed with RR AFTER WMG took them over.

 

[TribunalRecords]

Actually, DT signed with RR AFTER WMG took them over.

"On December 18, 2006, Warner Music Group signed an agreement to purchase a majority in shares (73.5%) of Roadrunner Records' parent company, Roadrunner Music Group B.V.[1] This deal became finalized on January 29, 2007 after receiving regulatory approval in Germany.[2]"

Dream Theater signed in February 2007.

Also, i don't have fact to back it up but i am pretty sure WMG distributed RR but did not have any stock in the company WELL before 2007.

So basically, the same umbrella because WMG was making money off every RR sale via distribution.

 

[nailz]

Either we're missing something because you're not articulating properly, or it's the polar opposite and you are the one who can't see what you're saying.

Or it's such a radical change from what's going on you can't even begin to understand it.

For the record, my personal beliefs on this issue are sandwiched somewhere between DC's and Matt's. I value DIY ethics but I also value a good A&R and a good manager and a good booking agent as well and that these things should be taken on a case by case basis, not shoehorned on every band.

I guess I'm probably in the middle too, realistically. My entire argument last night was based on smaller bands who aren't going to get the Label Support because they're in a fragmented, fringe market as it is, and no one is going to be the next Iron Maiden other than the next Iron Maiden. Most of these bands will be lucky to see half the success Iced Earth has achieved. A band needs help, I will be the first to say that, but I think stripping the rights of the bands away, to take away ALL of their freedom with their music, is awful. It's not the right way to do things, and it's hurting a bands ability to sell their product as much as it helps, and probably as much as piracy does.

I'd like to have the option to buy music directly from a band. I want to walk up to a band, hand them $10 and see it go into their pocket. I guess if a distro sells them their CDs back at cost, that's great, but they should have the right to distribute digital copies as well either at shows or from their website. No one should be able to tell them they can't.

 

[Element_man]

Hell naw man, Press a ton of CDs and include digital downloads or USB drives, play shows, sell the album for $5 a pop, move a TON of them. You'd recoup the initial cost of recording/pressing in the first 500-1000 sales of just the album, and after that it's pure profit! I promise that at $5 a pop, shit would fly off the table if you're any good.

I dunno if I agree with that. I think it would depend on the kind of band you are. If you've got big advertisements and promotion backing you and you're touring all the time them that might be something, though even then I'm skeptical. I'd personally rather drop 20 bucks on a CD that comes in a wooden box with the band's logo branded into the front, or the one that comes packaged with a pendant, a patch, or other cool shit. I'm big into getting creative with packaging and stuff and I think there is a solid market for that stuff still. I'm just a sucker for the handmade charm.

I know I've missed some of the part here, havent read that last 3 pages of posts yet

 

[dcowboys311]

So, for example, does NWN not sign contracts with it's bands therefore owning their music? or do the bands just work in conjunction with NWN and press the music as demand sees fit? That model works for their level it seems, but i also assume they aren't paying for the band's recording sessions and such. kind of more of a partnership.

It varies from band to band and label to label, but that's not the point. The point is that there are different models that work very well that still allow the band control over their music and achieve a substantial level of success (when success is defined as having people hear your music, buy your records, etc, not defined as letting your band be your job) without breaking the bank.

 

[Justin G]

Well this is the most entertaining thread I've read in months.

 

[AngraRULES]

Well this is the most entertaining thread I've read in months.

This. There's a lot of good information too, and some nutjob comments.

 

[skyrefuge]

I have long believed that the way to save the music industry is to go back to its past: Make the industry Single-driven again.

Deron really needs to figure out the glitch in the board software that causes decade-old posts like this to resurface and appear as if they are actually new ideas in 2012!

In 2011 in the US, 1.27 BILLION singles were sold, compared to 330 million albums. It IS already a singles-driven industry, and it turns out the industry actually isn't all that happy about that. In fact, there was a lot of excitement over the huge album-sales for Adele's '21' marking a *return* to album-sales in 2011, though in reality, in the digital world, she still sold only 1.8 million albums, compared to 5.8 million "Rolling in the Deep" singles.

Similarly, nailz's idea of bands operating without record labels is a concept emerging from a decade or more ago, which again, means that the concept has already been executed, and we can simply look to the past and present to see the results, rather than being forced to speculate about the future.

The results have shown that there remains a very strong correlation between promotion and record sales/popularity, and that's why the record labels have not become irrelevant, as some were predicting/hoping at the dawn of the digital age. There are tons of bands who operate independently, it's just that you tend not to be aware of them, because they don't have a record company promoting them. Without gatekeepers like record labels to direct attention towards one particular band out of a thousand similar bands, none of those thousand would achieve a critical-mass. With a label's promotion, at least 1 of them can.

Think of all the bands you know about. Then think how many of them are signed to record labels, vs. how many are not. I bet the vast majority of them are with record labels. And while it's impossible to *prove* causation for this correlation, it seems reasonable to assume that the promotion from the record labels must have *some* effect in you becoming aware of bands, even if the connection is not direct or obvious to you.

Neil

 

[Metaldrumz]

Now, to derail the thread again, I have long believed that the way to save the music industry is to go back to its past: Make the industry Single-driven again. The reason why people download is because they want that one great song in a CD, and refuse to pay $16 to buy a whole steaming pile of dog shit to get that one song. This has long been a problem with the industry. There are times when I liked one song off an album, but I cannot bear to hear the rest.

What cave have you been living in? There's been TONS of new singles released both digital and physical.

 

[TribunalRecords]

Think of all the bands you know about. Then think how many of them are signed to record labels, vs. how many are not. I bet the vast majority of them are with record labels. And while it's impossible to *prove* causation for this correlation, it seems reasonable to assume that the promotion from the record labels must have *some* effect in you becoming aware of bands, even if the connection is not direct or obvious to you.

Neil

Thanks for backing me up, i am sure not intentionally, but we are on the same page.

 

[J. Golden]

Well this is the most entertaining thread I've read in months.

I am getting bored with it myself. I think I rather walk the nine circles of hell than read through these circles again.
I think Aeon and Matt are wasting their time and effort explaining these things. And if Nailz and the Dcowboy seem to have a hold on this "biz" then put your money where your mouth is, give it a go.