Heavenly Call
Member
Maybe THIS will be the thread where we finally learn what IS metal and what IS NOT. I can't wait to see how it comes out in the end!
Meshuggah Talks S*#% On Nightwish
- Thread starter Dolamite S. Biffle
- Start date
Christ, I guess I took it differently then anyone else. It wasnt just Meshuggah's opinion it was this part in particular "I told Markus, on our label Nuclear Blast (because they're on it), "I know you're making a shitload of money, but you're making fools of yourself." He's like "I know". He's like that." That is from someone that works for the label that should be supporting the band and instead he knows he is making a fool of himself just to make money, thats not very metal.
Its not that big of a deal I just didnt care for his opinion so I expressed my displeasure.
Its not that big of a deal I just didnt care for his opinion so I expressed my displeasure.
mëtålspëd
Umlauts ist Krieg
Kaosaur
Member
I hear what you're sayin', Biff. That's a comment that probably should have stayed out, but of course now everyone is talking about this so the interviewer did his job, I guess.
I used to get irritated when people would say something isn't this and isn't that but more and more I'm coming around to their point of view. It's all about the spirit of it, basically. This is particularly true with blues, rock & roll and metal.
It's like when people give Bruce Willis shit for putting out Blues albums. What the fuck does Bruce Willis have the Blues about? If you're making rock music but you're some trust fund baby straight edger. If you're band sounds heavy and calls itself a metal band but is essentially a Europop group...or just ripping off other bands without trying to push yourself and your music further.
I think this kinda stuff needs to be said.
Edit: To further elaborate on the point... One of the main concepts of "being metal" (as a person or music) is the whole being genuine aspect of things... You know...."stay true" and all that lame catchphrase shit. Pop music is the exact opposite of that where everything is expected to be produced and fake and a product. Now when you judge Nightwish on that sliding scale, I think even as fan, it's pretty obvious where it sits.
I used to get irritated when people would say something isn't this and isn't that but more and more I'm coming around to their point of view. It's all about the spirit of it, basically. This is particularly true with blues, rock & roll and metal.
It's like when people give Bruce Willis shit for putting out Blues albums. What the fuck does Bruce Willis have the Blues about? If you're making rock music but you're some trust fund baby straight edger. If you're band sounds heavy and calls itself a metal band but is essentially a Europop group...or just ripping off other bands without trying to push yourself and your music further.
I think this kinda stuff needs to be said.
Edit: To further elaborate on the point... One of the main concepts of "being metal" (as a person or music) is the whole being genuine aspect of things... You know...."stay true" and all that lame catchphrase shit. Pop music is the exact opposite of that where everything is expected to be produced and fake and a product. Now when you judge Nightwish on that sliding scale, I think even as fan, it's pretty obvious where it sits.
Mr. Zane of HW
Member
...with that said, I bet Hagstrom would be the first one to jump on a tour with Nightwish.The guy sounds like a tool to me, so who cares what he thinks?
~Brian~
The guy is a dick...
Kaosaur
Member
Just to answer Brian's comment earlier, with the way both bands are drawing lately in the States...
...it would be Nightwish jumping on a tour with Meshuggah.
Except that'd never happen anyway
...it would be Nightwish jumping on a tour with Meshuggah.
Except that'd never happen anyway
compurocker
rocking out
I disagree. Why is pop music "produced" and "fake"? I can take a guess. Because one of a handful of songwriters write a lot of the pop music out there and it's written for one reason: to sell. Don't get me wrong, many pop singers do write their own songs or at least co-write them, but many more are written by behind the scenes songwriters. And there's a handful of producers that are producing for all the big pop stars, too. Then there's the infamous lip-syncing fiascos that often seem to happen with pop singers.
The keyboard player of Nightwish is also their lead songwriter and producer. That's quite a departure from the typical "fake" pop music formula.
Kaosaur
Member
Don't make me laugh. ALL music is made to sell. I was only commenting on a general consensus people have about the genre and the industry related to it. There's a vast amount of pop music that isn't all written by a few people and plenty of pop groups with competent musicians and composers and in them. I'm just just limiting myself to Britney and the Jonas Brothers and including pretty much all charting dance music when I say "pop".
We have a good crossover example for reference too. Look at the Prog band Frost*. AMAZING first album (Milliontown) all written by a guy who writes britpop hits for a living. He said in interviews that when he decided to write the album, he got together what he considered the Top 40 Prog Albums to listen to and write something that sounded like those. It's an amazing, ass-kicking album... ...but if that isn't "the formula", I don't know what is.
Some people would call that "phoning it in", but really that's not even the issue I'm discussing here as it's completely irrelevant. I'm just stating that Nightwish very obviously falls into that category of bands without much deliberation at all.
Edit: If anything, Metal is an anomaly in regard to what you're saying. Traditionally in almost all music there are composers and performers...and while most composers are performers, not all performers are composers. Maybe the reason there's so much shitty/copycat metal out there is because people are having to write their own material when clearly they are not composers and don't really have a good one in their band. (This statement does not in any way refer to Nightwish.)
OrbWeaver
BECAUSE FALCONER
I know some people share the guy's opinion about bands like Nightwish. I find that kind of close-mindedness in metal to be irritating, but what can you do? It's found in every music genre. There will always be the music snobs, even if some of them don't have much room to talk.
Kaosaur
Member
I don't see how it's close-minded at all. He didn't say Nightwish sucks. In fact he specifically stated that they're probably pretty good.
What he's saying is that Nightwish has more in common with ABBA than they do with Slayer...essentially...and he's voicing his general frustration that that the scene has gone in that direction.
axehomeyg
Member
Hahahaha, I about died reading that. An onstage prolapsed Spears would be news indeed.
Really though, I like Meshuggah and the rhythmic intensity and creativity that they display. However, their stuff is so dry and devoid of harmonic richness (to my ears, at least). I can totally see why he would hate the very antithesis of their sound (Nightwish).
From what I have read of various musical geniuses throughout history, they typically shut-off from the rest of the musical world after a certain time and just create based on the vast inspirational well that they have developed in their early lives (not everyone, of course, as always). Their art is a worthy thing to witness, but, their opinion of the musical world at large should probably be taken with a grain of salt. Yngwie (for example) barely listens to anything and he basically bashes just about anything he hears. Learning harmonic-minor badassery from him is great, but I'm sure he wouldn't approve of the *Frost, or Genesis, Symphony X, or Yanni (gasp) on my playlist.
compurocker
rocking out
So am I. And I do actually happen to enjoy some pop that doesn't fall into that narrow range.
So you're lumping Nightwish in with Britney, the Jonas Brothers, and a pop writer who did a masterful job at "phoning a metal album in", in spite of the fact that Nightwish has not admitted to writing their albums in the same fashion as Frost*, and they've released six albums that have stayed true to themselves, which earlier you indicated was what metal was all about.
I guess I just don't see the connection other than that they now have a pop singer. And simply having a pop singer is quite a stretch from being a formulaic phoning-it-in pop/metal band.
As if that's not a patronizing thing to say. It's closed-minded because while he may admit that they might be good, he's essentially saying that he'd rather that they and bands like them didn't exist at all. Because they are somehow diluting the metal scene.
I have no problem with someone not liking something. I have a problem when they want to prevent me from liking it, or prevent me from having access to it. Hypothetically let's just say his conversation with the record execs or whomever they were made some waves and Nightwish got dropped. Would that be good for metal? Would that be good for fans that enjoy both Meshuggah and Nightwish? I know it's an implausible hypothetical but I get the distinct feeling from that interview that he'd be thrilled if it were the case.
Some metal bands have more in common with Paganini than they do with Slayer, or ABBA. Some have more in common with Phil Collins. The metal scene is going in several different directions all at once and that's a great thing. Some people try to lump everything into these specific subgenres. Half the time they complain when a band sounds too much like everything else in the little box they've stuffed them into and half the time they complain when a band strays too far outside the box.
Man, I thought we left this shit behind in the 80s. Basically he's calling bands like Nightwish poseurs. But if you've got it in your head that being metal is acting a certain way or playing a certain way, then you're the one posing.
It's freakin' music. People who act as if it's something more than that, like it's a way of life or something are missing the point.
It's freakin' music. People who act as if it's something more than that, like it's a way of life or something are missing the point.
Kaosaur
Member
You're taking literally everything I said out of context/misinterpreting and completely ignoring the part where I said "that's not the point anyway".
And this is where you're missing the point again. He's not wishing they didn't exist at all. He's saying that they shouldn't be marketed the way that they are and essentially they shouldn't be on Nuclear Blast...because NB is a Metal label. The fact that Markus said (at least according to the quote) "I know." clinches it. Making this next statement:
A moot point. What, could you not like Nightwish if it were on a major label instead of a Metal label? They'd actually probably get MORE exposure that way...and just because a band gets dropped, ESPECIALLY in this day and age, doesn't mean that they can't still put out music and tour... or shop themselves to another label!
And if you were on the same label as a band that you were completely embarassed about, you would be entitled to voice your opinion like that simply because of the fact that the people who are representing you are doing so alongside such a band.
Kaosaur
Member
The way I see it, it's not quite the same thing. And you forget that "True Metal" has come back in a huge way.
compurocker
rocking out
LOL I'm glad you edited out "britpop label" - I have no idea how in the heck Nightwish would fit in more on such a label than on any metal label. No, I wouldn't stop listening to them if they were on a major label. I can't stand people that stop listening to bands solely because they make it big even when their music hasn't changed, but that's another discussion for another day.
By that logic Nuclear Blast never should have ventured into metal at all considering they started with hardcore punk, at least according to Wikipedia. Or when they were signing black metal acts they never should have started signing power metal acts. There's nothing wrong with a little diversity.
I guess you and I just differ on whether to call Nightwish pop or metal. The first five albums were definitely not pop. The sixth album has a pop singer. So if you think Nightwish is pop now, were they just releasing opera records before?
Iced Dog
The Stormrider's Pooch
Yep, it really is kind of a renaissance, at least that's the way it seems to me. I guess it's natural that some people would get irked by bands in the genre not conforming to their preconception of what metal is/should be.
In his defense though, Meshuggah dude did clarify that he's just speaking to his personal preference, and that he has nothing against the bands in question. The comment about 2 chicks singing and 3 keyboards, while it did make me chuckle, just makes him seem a bit narrowminded is all.
Similar threads
