Some cool tunes from 2010

[King Lek]

Agreed...as volatile a discussion as anything political....and no good generally comes of them.

The intent here seems harmless enough if just a wee bit misguided.
I have made many the mixed tape/CD over the years for friends, nothing wrong there.
However, a public forum truly is not the place to be doing so.

 

[Claus / Intromental]

I'm curious... in your mind, is the act of downloading, in an of itself, stealing? I'll use myself as an example. Let's say I download 300 CDs a year. And let's say I buy everything I enjoy, which averages out to be about 75 - 100 CDs a year. The fact that I didn't buy the other 200 - 225 CDs... is that stealing?

YES! Simply put: you go to a restaurant, start eating out of the food, but end up paying for only what you really like. What would happen? They'd call the cops on you.

Greg, this is not a discussion I want to take any longer - it frustrates me to know end that people can't or won't see what it is they are doing, and it frustrates me that people are trying to come up with excuses for why what they are doing is perfectly okay. At the end of the day it doesn't matter. I'm doomed with this. I'm getting closer and closer every day to just shut my business down and it is (no matter what people might come up with of stupid excuses) very much in part due to the illegal downloading.

At the end of the day, this discussion doesn't matter, it's too late to try to teach people new ways - we live in a society where, unfortunately, it has become accepted to steal as long as it's done over the internet.

I've got no more to say on this subject - feel free to tell me I'm wrong, and I'll let you get away with it. I won't argue back any further.

You guys aren't the ones losing your job because of the illegal downloads so you're safe and shouldn't care. I am and it scares the heck out of me.

Claus

 

[Cheiron]

You want to know why? Really? You can't figure it out on your own?

I'll tell you why:

Because I'm no longer making enough money on the music business alone to pay my rent, to pay for food for my wife and kid, to pay for gas, to pay for ... well, anything actually.

I don't think it has much to do with downloading. Let's see. You have bands that you manage which can't get people to buy tickets to go see them. Perhaps, the problem is that the genre is stale and that's what is hurting you? Perhaps its that enough people aren't buying the albums because they aren't any good. When you got into the business it was thriving and about to hit its peak. There was lots of creativity. Now, only minor degrees of talent separate some of them from the back, but is that enough to see surging CD sales? No. You have some good bands, but then you have bands that nobody in their right mind can ever see as great. Good, but not great. Who wants to buy good CDs? I want to buy great ones. I want to listen to great bands. Yet, people expect to get rich by merely being good. Best of luck. Good companies fail all the time due to great ones. If you aren't great, you can't complain.

And its not like going into your fridge. If I go into your fridge and steal something, I have it, you don't. If I download, I have it, you have it. Its huge ignorance to think that 95% of the people who downloaded the album would have bought it otherwise. Maybe 2-5% is more legitimate.

Every body in the music business likes to ignore the fact that CD sales were dropping before Napster ever came on the scene.

There was a time when musicians made money by entertaining people live. Now they want to just put out redundant crap, and then shout to hell or whatever they do, when they aren't getting enough money. How about trying to be a good musician, and write good music for a change? How about trying to put on good live performances, and actually learn how to make money touring, instead of being promised the golden opportunities of doing world tours when you can barely get 10 people to want to pay to see you at each show?

Pointing at downloading as an excuse for your business failing is pointless. Even if its the reason, its your necessity to figure out how to survive besides it, or get out of the business.

 

[General Zod]

YES! Simply put: you go to a restaurant, start eating out of the food, but end up paying for only what you really like. What would happen? They'd call the cops on you.

I've got no more to say on this subject - feel free to tell me I'm wrong, and I'll let you get away with it. I won't argue back any further.

Claus... please understand, I'm not trying to debate you, in the sense that I'm interested in trying to change your mind or win an argument. I'm merely interested in hearing your perspective. Obviously, given the business you're in, your perspective is much different than my own. While it's a shame you're not interested in continuing this discussion, I find the subject quite interesting, and can't help but respond to the interesting points you've made. If you do elect to respond, I look forward to reading more of your perspective. If you're sick of talking about this, I respect that as well and I'm sorry this is impacting you in such a personal way.

For what it's worth, I don't view the food analogy as a fair one. For starters, if you serve me a meal I don't like, I can take a couple of bites and return it without paying for it. Regardless, food is not art (well, most food isn't). To my mind, a better analogy would be a painting or a sculpture. When I go to a gallery, the gallery doesn't cover all but 15% of it, and ask me to decide whether I want to buy the painting based solely on the 15% they've let me see. And they don't show me only a low grade version of that 15% of the painting (akin to letting me listen to two or three 96Kbps MP3). I get to view the whole thing, in its original quality, as often as I like, and determine if it's to my liking before I purchase it.

Obviously, the painting analogy isn't perfect either, but it's an attempt to compare art to art.

You guys aren't the ones losing your job because of the illegal downloads so you're safe and shouldn't care. I am and it scares the heck out of me.

True. However, I suspect you view the attitudes of myself and others who download and buy, as our attempt to justify stealing. I obviously can't stop you from seeing it that way. However, I believe you and I would agree, there's no putting this genie back in the bottle. File sharing isn't going anywhere. So as someone who genuinely wants to support the bands he likes, I have one of two options:

1. Embrace file sharing and buy what I like. I see this as a win for me, the artists and the labels:

• Record Label: They sell me between 75 - 100 CDs per year
• Me: I don't waste my money buying shit CDs that I'll never listen to again
• Artists: My limited CD funds go to the most deserving artists, who wrote the best music, rather than to the artists with best hype/coolest cover art

2. Ignore the world of file sharing; base purchases on a small selection of low-quality MySpace files:

• Record Labels: They sell me between 25 - 30 CDs per year
• Me: I waste my money on CDs that are inconsistent
• Artists: far fewer artists, as a whole, are rewarded with a purchase. Additionally, inferior artists are often rewarded with CD purchases, due to poorly informed buying decisions

What is often lost in the noise of this debate, is how badly the fans use to get screwed by labels and bands. I can't tell you how many shit CDs and tapes I've bought over the years, because I had no way of hearing the whole album prior to purchase. The labels would release a single, intended to suggest that the rest of the disc is of nearly the same quality. However, when you bought the disc, you'd quickly learn the disc had one great song and nine filler tracks. So I ask you... were labels stealing from fans back then, by selling us something we never would have purchased had we been fully aware of the product's quality?

 

[Jasonic]

Couple points I want to make here.

Zod - You are a VERY rare breed, in actually purchasing that high of a percentage of music you download. I know you are a supporter of metal in general, so you purchase the CDs of bands you like. That is awesome. The reality though is that most who download illegally never buy the CD. I mean, why would they? Most people don't even listen to physical CDs anymore. I still buy them (or trade for them), but after a couple spins in the car, it gets ripped to my laptop, then loaded to my iPod. The physical CD just becomes part of my collection, as I consider myself to be a collector, though that stems from being a former vinyl junkie.

Ok - here's the flipside.......

In the age of declining sales for everything, downloading gives the fan a preview into something they otherwise would not be able to check out. Sure, there are other legal avenues to hear something, like My Space or a label's page. I am sure downloading has led to some CD sales that otherwise would not have happened.

The pisser though is the small increase in sales is miniscule compared to the number of definitive CD sales lost due to people who 100% download, with no intent on ever paying for music again.

I am not saying this to get on anyone's good side, but I can honestly say I have NEVER illegally downloaded in my life. One time I went to Napster, I immediately got a virus. Ever since then, I have been way too scared to download a file anyhow, regardless of what I morally feel about downloading.

I think some bigger rock bands have got it right, like NIN and the Pumpkins, who are offering their new music free. Sure, some might say their new output isn't worth 5 cents, but that's not the point. You offer the tunes for free, having fans come to your site to download. Well, repeat hits to your site means immediate audience for advertising other merchandise, concert dates, etc.

All I am going to say is a major "f*ck you" to the metal fans who piss and moan about their favorite bands not coming to town or their favorite bands breaking up if I were to find out they didn't purchase their last CD. SUPPORT!

 

[Jasonic]

We lost a great record store here in Chicago last month that has been around for over 10 years due to people not buying CD's and just downloading them.

That's part of it.

The major issue with Haven though was that they never adapted to compete with the world around them. Sure, they had a niche crowd and customer base, but these aren't the days where underground stores of any kind can survive if they are basically a glorified hangout with products to sell.

 

[AMBR]

...

At the end of the day, this discussion doesn't matter, it's too late to try to teach people new ways - we live in a society where, unfortunately, it has become accepted to steal as long as it's done over the internet.

...
You guys aren't the ones losing your job because of the illegal downloads so you're safe and shouldn't care. I am and it scares the heck out of me.

Claus

I feel your pain in more ways than one. I started writing and photographing in the music industry six years ago to supplement my income with hopes (naive) that I could eventually make it my full-time job. I actually made a pretty decent chunk of change for a little while, but the lack of money in the industry (due mostly to downloading) has caused many publications, labels and other entities who used my services to fold. Now I get mostly requests for barter or pro bono work.

But hey, still got the day job right? No, that too is dwindling due to the "everything on the internet should be free" mentality. As a journalist, I've seen a huge shrinkage in the number and size of publications and the money they are willing to pay for quality journalism. Not to mention a huge decline in the quality of writing. Anyone can slap up a hastily scribed blog and get people to read it. And there's no need to check resources, just paste in a link and your ass is covered.

That said, I've never downloaded music and still won't, but I do have the New York Times delivered to me electronically for free, and I must say, not sure I'll pay for it when they start charging in January. Hell, I don't have the money.

 

[Cheiron]

Journalism is another matter. Sure a lot of it is freely available and that hurts, to an extent. But the main problem is that Journalism doesn't have a high amount of value attached to it, rightly so. The industry is still making a killing, just not as much as they used to.

Publications and magazines are failing because they are created when the times are good, and die when they aren't. Everybody knows this. You can't expect a trend to last, else it wouldn't be a trend. If you read metal magazines in the latter stages, they weren't very good. Their failure has absolutely nothing to do with downloading. Downloading should help them! It has more to do with that you can go to various web sites and get the same quality of interviews and reviews. It also has to do with people not necessarily wanting paper based journalism. What is so wrong with that? With the internet we don't need to have carefully selected volumes. Sure, there is a place for that if done right and with good purpose, but mostly we don't need that. But it takes the right people to make this work, not people interested in merely being factory workers. Rolling Stones magazine survives basically giving their publication away, and charging advertisers. They also get exclusivity, and do in depth articles with quality writing. Metal magazines, not so much.

Most journalism is terrible. It offers nothing. the writing is sterile. The fault exists all around, its a combination of the publishers, the advertisers, the journalists, the editors, and more. But people are still making money to do it.

Blogs are useful. They offer analysis on news. Something newspapers only do with columnists. They also offer avenues to hear news that you are interested in and/or that affects you. But largely, they still rely on referring to other news sources. Which is fine. I don't trust a blogger reporting 'original' news, unless he/she had first hand account.

 

[skyrefuge]

Zod - You are a VERY rare breed, in actually purchasing that high of a percentage of music you download.

How do you know that he's a very rare breed? Can you point to the data you use to support that claim? Not saying you're wrong, but the only research I've seen in this area suggests the opposite: those who download-for-free spend MORE (sometimes a lot more) on music than those who don't download.

http://arstechnica.com/media/news/2009/04/study-pirates-buy-tons-more-music-than-average-folks.ars
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1224460/Illegal-downloaders-spend-MORE-music-obey-law.html

Even if Zod *is* a rare breed in general, I feel pretty confident in saying that his behavior is not rare *in this community*. People here are probably in the top 0.1% in terms of the amount of money they spend on music. On top of that, this thread was a promotional mix-tape, the Internet-age equivalent of playing some music you like for your friends in your car. Is downloading a 16-song compilation really going to stop anyone from buying albums they otherwise would have bought? "ooh, sweet, I was totally going to buy the new Dream Evil album, but now that I can download one of the songs for free, I won't!" Huh? So while *someone* may be taking the bread from Claus's kid's mouth, it's certainly not anyone in this thread, so it's a very odd place to be scolding.

Neil

 

[GoRillaBoy76]

Everyone has said such great arguments in defense of their fews on this topic. (which we have all said before) But no one has said what is really the leading cause to the music industry hurting right now(even though i agree they need to change some things).

But plan and simple, it is the economy. It is hurting everyone, especially luxury business like music and arts. I love to buy CDs. I love looking through them at stores, I love browsing online and ordering and then waiting to get my gift in the mail. I love owning a Cd, I love cover art and cool liner notes. I mean you truly cant say you own a mp3 even if you pay for it(I know legally you can), but it is just something about having the hard copy you can hold. and when i had a good job I would go movie and Cd shopping atleast once a week. I own just shelves and shelves and boxes and boxes of movies and CDs(i was an assistant manager at FYE while in college). But now I am unemployed (and even with a college degree I am struggling to find anything that is not construction or retail). So the only way I can keep up with the music and movies that I love now is to download. and when I find another job the purchasing will start all over again. Now do I buy everything I download? NO. With the limited funds that I have now I have decided to support the music and movie biz in the experience category, going out to the movies instead of buying a DVD, saving up and going to a concert instead of buying a CD.

I know that downloading is wrong (even it does have its win-win perks), it is still wrong, but it is not going any where. someone said earlier that the music industry has to just find away to survive, to adjust. the movie industry has done this to an extent with 3D ( an experience for now at least you can not get with downloading). So I wish the best to everyone in the music and movie biz but downloading is not going away. I feel however that when the economy picks up, this debate with not seem as important. I know that whenever I get another good job I will be right back out there throwing my money into the biz.

 

[Diabolik]

Even with the terrible economy I still buy at least 3 to 5 CD's a week...maybe less with Metal Haven closed and still support every thing I enjoy. I used to go to the movies almost every weekend to and see 1 or 2 new films. I cut back on that because the lack of good stuff being shown. That is how I show the theaters and studios that I am not supporting them. I am not at home watching them online. I just spend my money else where.

I do think what really could have saved the CD market was lower the prices on CD's. No reason why people should be charging 16 bucks for a CD. We all know the cost to make them. I think more people would buy more at that price and gamble more on newer bands. I would be interested to see if a label would try something out like release a barebones disc and a deluxe one. For example....a band has a new CD out. The barebones edition is just the CD and the cover art. maybe some linear notes. The deluxe one has the bonus tracks and the booklet. The bare bones one could go for like 7.99 while the deluxe can go for the regular price like 15 bucks. YOu are at least giving people the choice to what version they want. You could gamble then on new bands for 7.99 and buy the deluxe for bands you already like. It would be an interesting experiment. OnDemand on Comcast does thing sort of thing for films that are at the art house theaters. They have a "same day as theater" ppv. It is a great way for a small film to reach a wider market for those who dont want to travel to the theater but are interested in seeing the film.

 

[Jasonic]

Neil - I was speaking in relation to the mass CD buying public, not just the underground. Sure, us in the underground are more likely to buy a CD, as we are interested in the entire album.

Take though the pop music industry. You have VERY casual fans of the music, who always says comments like, "Why should I buy an album when there are only 3 good songs on it" (those being just the songs on the radio) That fan is going to only download those radio songs (be it illegally or legally), and rip it to their IPOD.

You know, I have read a lot from long running musicians saying things like, "No one is interested in the format of the album anymore" Lots of artists are considering just releasing "songs" as they are recorded, from their site. Maybe that's not the worst idea.

Finally, I think we need to remember that the underground community is very different in how they view the format of the album. Most of us actually want the entire album of the bands we like.

As Bob said, I don't know how stores can justify charging $16.99 for a CD. I know they have to cover rent in combination with making up for declining sales, but simple economics will prove this leads to disasterous results. Bottom line, if you can't compete, don't.

Good on people like Bob who does regularly purchase CDs, comics, books, DVDs, goes to movies and shows. Granted, he is single and has the extra time and $$$ to do so.

 

[dcowboys311]

It's a completely fair argument that the reason CD sales have "plummeted" is solely due to those bastard thieves who do nothing but steal from the hands of the hardworking corporate music business.

Has nothing to do with the shift from physical media to mp3s.
Has nothing to do with the rise in price of other outlets for people to spend their disposable income.
Has nothing to do with the focus on singles and ringtones these days instead of full albums.
Has nothing to do with the garbage music being put out by once respectable labels in hopes of nailing the 14-16 year old market.

It's just those asshole DOWNLOADERS.

 

[Jasonic]

I do think what really could have saved the CD market was lower the prices on CD's. No reason why people should be charging 16 bucks for a CD.

Esp for underground bands.
Just go to eBay, amazon, half.com, or the label, and you can get the CD for about $5 cheaper than you could in a brick and mortar.

Though, it is certainly a lot more fun to find a metal CD in a store, seeing the artwork on the shelf. I can appreciate the experience factor in it, which I know for you Bob was a lot of the reason you purchased everything from Haven, even though you knew you were overpaying.

Just not enough customers like you though.

 

[Jasonic]

It's a completely fair argument that the reason CD sales have "plummeted" is solely due to those bastard thieves who do nothing but steal from the hands of the hardworking corporate music business.

Has nothing to do with the shift from physical media to mp3s.
Has nothing to do with the rise in price of other outlets for people to spend their disposable income.
Has nothing to do with the focus on singles and ringtones these days instead of full albums.
Has nothing to do with the garbage music being put out by once respectable labels in hopes of nailing the 14-16 year old market.

It's just those asshole DOWNLOADERS.

 

[dcowboys311]

And Claus, out of curiosity -- not trying to argue with you, simply trying to learn something today -- is the reason you're losing money in the music business solely due to CD sales decreasing? Or has the cost of production, marketing, etc INCREASED cutting your profit margins in addition to this?

 

[Cheiron]

I love how you go into a store, and you get less useful help than if you just shopped online. BestBuy got a little smart, and now you can burn CDs right in the store if you can't find the CD there, or they'll ship it to you for free. That's cool.

I go into a store to buy a CD to get it now, and to avoid S&H. It ends up that it doesn't save me anything. So CD stores offer me nothing in terms of value of going into them, but then act surprised when I don't spend the extra time and gas money to go to them? Shocking.

 

[King Lek]

Hmmm......3D music.....

 

[TribunalRecords]

I think it is the record label's fault too. The only real reason to buy a CD nowadays is if you're a "collector" like me or something, especially since you don't need to fiddle around with a plastic disc thingy that breaks if you're just gonna upload it to your computer.

Record labels need to come up with something innovative and exciting. If they want the masses to buy the music instead of downloading it, they need to sell the album as a product that is more than just the music. You're not going to sell an album unless the customer WANTS to buy it. I haven't seen the music industry come out with anything new and innovative in regards to the physical CD itself (with a few exceptions). In an era where technology progresses at an outstanding rate, the music industry hasn't done much besides make it all electronic (which just makes it easier to steal).

So until record labels and bands do something cool and innovative, I can see why nobody buys music anymore. I mean, imagine if Apple or Ford or most other businesses never bothered to release future generations of a product. They'd be out of business. No wonder the record labels are struggling financially.

interesting how the actual music has once again been downgrading to needing EXTRA stuff for purchase or therefore its justifiable to steal (download) it. the music is what you want, it's what you listen to, it's what you enjoy so why does it need something extra for the consumer to be forced to buy it?

also, most labels offer their product for download legally and for purchasing. those that don't at this point don't know how or choose not to do so. so to say that it's labels fault is cop out. they own what you want to purchase, bottom line it's theirs legally until you pay for it, and if you don't pay for it...it's theft. there is no way around it, like it or not.

most labels DO offer extra stuff, plus when was creating a tangible substance for the consumer to purchase a bad thing? a CD, LP, CASSETTE, 8 TRACK will always be far superior to me because its something physical.

who the hell wants to own something they cannot hold in their hands and look at?! i guess i am old school, but iPods are good for travel and ease and comfort, but not for me to collect my music on.

but like i said in the post before i am doing something extra for the fans when i can and that is ONLY on the physical product. i give bonus tracks to the fans who want to support a physical way of life rather than digital. the digital consumer get no less, but they don't get the added perks because they are choosing a method i don't support fully, but am forced to because of the direction society is heading. do i like it? no, but do i cater to it for my business, yes.

also, i have more respect for people who illegally download music when they admit to being a thief rather than justify it however they deem fit to do so. if you are a thief you are a thief at least own up to it. i do. i download leaks of albums all the time, but with a 9,000+ CD collection and 1200+ DVDs i seem to be the odd man out most of the time. i could never buy another album and be content with the music i own, but i am a physical collector and it shows in how i choose to run my business and my band.

again, people are going to do what they do, but i figured i should chime in as a label owner and being a member of a band currently out there in this ever changing music industry.

 

[skyrefuge]

Neil - I was speaking in relation to the mass CD buying public, not just the underground.

Yeah, and so were those studies I referenced. They interviewed hundreds/thousands of people using a controlled methodology before publishing their conclusions. They didn't just grab some anecdotes they heard and use them to support their pre-existing beliefs. You're saying "Since I see the sun rise and set each day, that obviously means the sun revolves around the earth." Yeah, that seems like the obvious conclusion, but sometimes a bit of study can reveal that things actually work quite differently than they initially appear.

Take though the pop music industry. You have VERY casual fans of the music, who always says comments like, "Why should I buy an album when there are only 3 good songs on it" (those being just the songs on the radio) That fan is going to only download those radio songs (be it illegally or legally), and rip it to their IPOD.

Perhaps, but to use that in a "downloading is killing the music industry" argument, first you have to show how often that actually happens, and then you have to prove that those are actual "lost sales"; would the download-for-free-er have actually bought the music if the free version wasn't available, or would she have just said "eh" and listened to more stuff she's already paid for?

Neil