Some cool tunes from 2010

[TribunalRecords]

oh yeah, a shirt my band printed for tour last summer. only available for purchase WITH a CD. naturally KILLWHITNEYDEAD was on the front side.

 

[dcowboys311]

I love how you go into a store, and you get less useful help than if you just shopped online. BestBuy got a little smart, and now you can burn CDs right in the store if you can't find the CD there, or they'll ship it to you for free. That's cool.

Didn't know that about Best Buy. That's kind of cool.

It's a bit ridiculous how a lot of people in the music industry talk about how 5 years ago, things were different.

Can you think of any major industry that hasn't changed over the course of the last few years?

Complaining isn't the way to compete with change...adapting is.

 

[TribunalRecords]

Didn't know that about Best Buy. That's kind of cool.

It's a bit ridiculous how a lot of people in the music industry talk about how 5 years ago, things were different.

Can you think of any major industry that hasn't changed over the course of the last few years?

Complaining isn't the way to compete with change...adapting is.

but here is the major issues with your statement, what major industry has been forced to adapt due to theft? sure industries have to change because of various things, but what industry has changed because of illegal activity?

besides of course industries based in illegal activity to begin with.

 

[Jasonic]

Matt - That's awesome!!
I wish I could download a Manilla Road shirt.
Those bootleg tshirts from Greece won't fit my dog after washing it!

Neil - What study do I have to provde?
Just read the billboard charts every week.
Albums with sales of 50K are in the top 10!
You used to have to sell hundreds of thousands to break the top 10.

I know you think I am generalizing, but it's pretty much common knowledge. Once again, you MUST remove the underground from this, as its a VERY small fraction of the overall industry anyhow.

As dcowboys said, you have to consider the MP3 format.
The casual music fan has ZERO interest in the physical format.
Also not discussed yet is satellite radio.
Lots of "radio" listeners who buy only a couple CDs a year are even less inclined if now they are paying a monthly fee for XM or Sirius or whatever.

 

[dcowboys311]

but here is the major issues with your statement, what major industry has been forced to adapt due to theft? sure industries have to change because of various things, but what industry has changed because of illegal activity?

besides of course industries based in illegal activity to begin with.

I wouldn't say it's so much theft as much as it is advances in technology, though. Wasn't it common to make copies of tapes back in the 80s?

The "theft" comes along with the new way music is viewed in our society. Yeah it might suck...but complaining isn't going to do anything at all. It never has. Just makes you look like a sore loser.

I buy a lot of vinyl. Don't buy CDs at all. So I'm not exactly at the forefront of music purchasing technology. I just think that it's dumb to complain and complain and complain but not actually try to DO anything to fight off your problems.

 

[General Zod]

Zod - You are a VERY rare breed, in actually purchasing that high of a percentage of music you download. I know you are a supporter of metal in general, so you purchase the CDs of bands you like. That is awesome. The reality though is that most who download illegally never buy the CD.

Am I a rare breed among Prog and Power fans? I wouldn't think so. And I don't suspect Claus is upset about Eminen's plummeting sales. So while this is an issue impacting the entire industry, I'm confining my discussion points to the genres discussed here. And when we limit the discussion to our genre, is downloading the real problem?

We know that Glenn has been struggling to sell tickets. In a weird way, gaining easy/free access to the music distributed by Claus, should only serve to increase Glenn's ticket sales. However, Glenn's ticket sales aren't growing or even remaining stable. Granted, there isn't a perfect correlation between these two factors. However, it suggests that some of the same elements which impact Glenn, are likely impacting Claus, but aren't being given their fair due. The economy, the aging of the fan base, the age of the genre itself, are all contributing factors here. It may be easier to look at the problem, and lay it all at the feet of downloaders. However, I'm not sure how complete that assessment is.

 

[skyrefuge]

I would be interested to see if a label would try something out like release a barebones disc and a deluxe one.

As someone who buys 150-250 CDs a year, surely you've noticed at least one or two occasions where record labels have done this? I thought they've been doing it forever! Digipaks, bonus tracks, "limited editions", blah blah blah.

If you go to amazon.com, you'll even see almost your exact prices for most albums they sell. ~$16 for the CD, with a link to the $8 mp3 version.

Neil

 

[skyrefuge]

It's a bit ridiculous how a lot of people in the music industry talk about how 5 years ago, things were different.

Does anyone actually say that? If so, then yes, that's pretty ridiculous. Not because industries always change, but because it was TEN years ago that Metallica sued Napster. So five years ago was already well into the "dark days". If downloading-for-free was truly killing the music industry, then the music industry would have been dead years ago. Instead, there's still an overwhelming amount of new music being produced and marketed, which tells me the industry is still very much alive. Now, maybe the industry only continues *because* of its successful attempts to fight/stop downloading-for-free, and its attempts to adapt to the new market conditions.

Complaining isn't the way to compete with change...adapting is.

I think it's unfair to assume that people or the industry can only do one of those things at a time. In fact, complaining ("educating") *while* adapting is probably the most sensible two-pronged approach to achieve survival, and that's clearly what the industry has been doing. But there's also only so much "adapting" that can be done. It's not like there's some brilliant solution out there to make money in the face of downloading-for-free that the record companies are just ignoring because they prefer to bitch at you instead.

Neil

 

[skyrefuge]

Neil - What study do I have to provde?

One that shows people who download music for free don't buy music.

Just read the billboard charts every week.
Albums with sales of 50K are in the top 10!
You used to have to sell hundreds of thousands to break the top 10.

"Just look at that sun rising! It's clearly going around the earth!" Let's see, here are a few alternate hypotheses to explain your Billboard observation:

- The enormously decreased costs of music production have enormously increased the number of albums released, so sales that once all went to the top-seller are now distributed more evenly down to all of the other releases available.
- Other forms of entertainment (video games, sports, YouTube) are taking consumer dollars from music.
- A general decrease in entertainment budgets is taking consumer dollars from all forms of entertainment.

You need to rule those possibilities out (and many others) before you can pin the blame on downloading-for-free.

I know you think I am generalizing, but it's pretty much common knowledge.

Ohhhh...well you should have just said that from the beginning! Because "common knowledge" is never wrong!

Neil

 

[nomisofsiman]

thank you. This drives me nuts to no end. Even worse than music is what is happening to the movie industry....sure there are people who think...well that movie made millions but there are tons that are smaller films that people will watch bootlegs of online and not go to the theater and support. So people think...well I am not hurting anyone by doing this. No...you basically stole someone's hard work for your own and not paid for it. People wonder why stuff doesnt get wide releases or why some things dont make it out to thier city....well this is one of the reasons why. You may think...well I am just one person. Well there may be 2,000 others with the same thought. So if you were making a low budget filmaker and your first film say hit a few theaters and say those 2,000 who watched it online didnt go to the theater to support it. Well that directors film just lost out on lots of revenue.

Same goes to record labels and bands. Like Claus, I am sick of people downloading and stealing. We lost a great record store here in Chicago last month that has been around for over 10 years due to people not buying CD's and just downloading them. Basically we are slowly killing out own scene by stealing from it.

It amazes me is that people who are actually smart still havent figured this out.

I typically agree with you, but in terms of the movie industry being worse off, I'll have to disagree. I'll limit this response though as it probably is a conversation I will be starting in the lounge. I'm trying to get into the film industry, so I do know a bit about this. Yes, they have people downloading as well, but if you look at weekend box offices, they aren't hurting. Yes, a lot of films aren't shown nationwide, but that has always been the case with indies and has nothing to do with downloading. If you or anyone else for that matter, want to continue this conversation of movie vs music piracy as I said, I'll be starting a thread on this in the lounge.

Couple points I want to make here.

Zod - You are a VERY rare breed, in actually purchasing that high of a percentage of music you download. I know you are a supporter of metal in general, so you purchase the CDs of bands you like. That is awesome. The reality though is that most who download illegally never buy the CD. I mean, why would they? Most people don't even listen to physical CDs anymore. I still buy them (or trade for them), but after a couple spins in the car, it gets ripped to my laptop, then loaded to my iPod. The physical CD just becomes part of my collection, as I consider myself to be a collector, though that stems from being a former vinyl junkie.

Ok - here's the flipside.......

In the age of declining sales for everything, downloading gives the fan a preview into something they otherwise would not be able to check out. Sure, there are other legal avenues to hear something, like My Space or a label's page. I am sure downloading has led to some CD sales that otherwise would not have happened.

The pisser though is the small increase in sales is miniscule compared to the number of definitive CD sales lost due to people who 100% download, with no intent on ever paying for music again.

I am not saying this to get on anyone's good side, but I can honestly say I have NEVER illegally downloaded in my life. One time I went to Napster, I immediately got a virus. Ever since then, I have been way too scared to download a file anyhow, regardless of what I morally feel about downloading.

I think some bigger rock bands have got it right, like NIN and the Pumpkins, who are offering their new music free. Sure, some might say their new output isn't worth 5 cents, but that's not the point. You offer the tunes for free, having fans come to your site to download. Well, repeat hits to your site means immediate audience for advertising other merchandise, concert dates, etc.

All I am going to say is a major "f*ck you" to the metal fans who piss and moan about their favorite bands not coming to town or their favorite bands breaking up if I were to find out they didn't purchase their last CD. SUPPORT!

THIS!!! People like Zod indeed are a rare breed. I like you Jason, have never downloaded. I have never felt right about it period. The only thing I do that is somewhat close is if my dad bought a disc and wants to share it, he burns a disc for me, then I listen to it and if I like it, I do what Zod does and purchases the disc. That simple. I know if I were to download music, it would be very hard for me to get the motivation to then buy the disc and I don't feel right.

The only thing I am guilty of and I don't know what Claus and other people think of, is that about half of the cds I buy, I buy used online, because at the end of the day some discs are just way too expensive.

As Jason said, a lot of people, both on this forum and otherwise complain why their bands never tour here. Well, this is the reason. CD sales were and still to a certain extent are the best benchmark in terms of bringing bands over, what sized venues to book them, etc. If you're mad that a band never comes, buy their cds and spread the word. There just simply is no other way they will come, with the exception of people like Glenn who is willing to risk it, or for that matter other bands such as Dream Theater or Metallica for example who will put these bands on a tour.

Everyone has said such great arguments in defense of their fews on this topic. (which we have all said before) But no one has said what is really the leading cause to the music industry hurting right now(even though i agree they need to change some things).

But plan and simple, it is the economy. It is hurting everyone, especially luxury business like music and arts.

To a point, yes it is the economy. However, the downfall in cd sales started way before the market crashed years ago. Let's be perfectly honest. I would actually say that concert sales are hurting more due to the economy than cd sales.

I do think what really could have saved the CD market was lower the prices on CD's. No reason why people should be charging 16 bucks for a CD. We all know the cost to make them. I think more people would buy more at that price and gamble more on newer bands. I would be interested to see if a label would try something out like release a barebones disc and a deluxe one. For example....a band has a new CD out. The barebones edition is just the CD and the cover art. maybe some linear notes. The deluxe one has the bonus tracks and the booklet. The bare bones one could go for like 7.99 while the deluxe can go for the regular price like 15 bucks. YOu are at least giving people the choice to what version they want. You could gamble then on new bands for 7.99 and buy the deluxe for bands you already like. It would be an interesting experiment.

I do agree with you here. CDs are getting too expensive. The two choices are great. Unfortunately, when they do two choices, it tends to be the cheaper one is a minimum of $12-$15, whereas the deluxe is $20+. By doing that, the industry is kicking itself in the ass. All the time, when companies aren't doing well, they up the price and all that tends to do, from where I sit is make the consumer NOT want to purchase it. Cds in my opinion, unless it's some mega deluxe set or whatever should be $10 max. However, that is rare it seems nowadays. If this was the case, I probably wouldn't even be buying the used cds I do, for which I feel guilty but some of the prices are just ridiculous.

 

[Prog_Please]

interesting how the actual music has once again been downgrading to needing EXTRA stuff for purchase or therefore its justifiable to steal (download) it. the music is what you want, it's what you listen to, it's what you enjoy so why does it need something extra for the consumer to be forced to buy it?

also, most labels offer their product for download legally and for purchasing. those that don't at this point don't know how or choose not to do so. so to say that it's labels fault is cop out. they own what you want to purchase, bottom line it's theirs legally until you pay for it, and if you don't pay for it...it's theft. there is no way around it, like it or not.

most labels DO offer extra stuff, plus when was creating a tangible substance for the consumer to purchase a bad thing? a CD, LP, CASSETTE, 8 TRACK will always be far superior to me because its something physical.

who the hell wants to own something they cannot hold in their hands and look at?! i guess i am old school, but iPods are good for travel and ease and comfort, but not for me to collect my music on.

but like i said in the post before i am doing something extra for the fans when i can and that is ONLY on the physical product. i give bonus tracks to the fans who want to support a physical way of life rather than digital. the digital consumer get no less, but they don't get the added perks because they are choosing a method i don't support fully, but am forced to because of the direction society is heading. do i like it? no, but do i cater to it for my business, yes.

My point was that you need to get customers to WANT to buy your product. This is different than saying they have to buy it since its illegal if they don't. I see you have gone out of your way to provide extra incentive to buy the physical thing, and that is awesome, but if it doesn't work it doesn't work. Great ideas often don't sell simply because its not what the customer wants; I don't even know what the customer really wants (I'd personally like to see 3d holographic clips of my bands playing one of their songs when you open the CD).

also, i have more respect for people who illegally download music when they admit to being a thief rather than justify it however they deem fit to do so. if you are a thief you are a thief at least own up to it. i do. i download leaks of albums all the time, but with a 9,000+ CD collection and 1200+ DVDs i seem to be the odd man out most of the time. i could never buy another album and be content with the music i own, but i am a physical collector and it shows in how i choose to run my business and my band.

I hope this little rant isn't directed at me. I already said previously that I don't download music (illegally OR legally). Like you and many others on this forum, I am a collector and want the physical copy for my shelf.

I wouldn't say it's so much theft as much as it is advances in technology, though. Wasn't it common to make copies of tapes back in the 80s?

The "theft" comes along with the new way music is viewed in our society. Yeah it might suck...but complaining isn't going to do anything at all. It never has. Just makes you look like a sore loser.

I buy a lot of vinyl. Don't buy CDs at all. So I'm not exactly at the forefront of music purchasing technology. I just think that it's dumb to complain and complain and complain but not actually try to DO anything to fight off your problems.

This is what I was trying to get across in my post. Times have changed. People's view of what is right and wrong have changed. Smoking marijuana is illegal too, but that doesn't stop people. In my eyes, anyone who smokes marijuana has no right to complain about illegally downloading music.

Hopefully my point is clear.

 

[AngraRULES]

THIS!!! People like Zod indeed are a rare breed. I like you Jason, have never downloaded. I have never felt right about it period. The only thing I do that is somewhat close is if my dad bought a disc and wants to share it, he burns a disc for me, then I listen to it and if I like it, I do what Zod does and purchases the disc. That simple. I know if I were to download music, it would be very hard for me to get the motivation to then buy the disc and I don't feel right.

Simon, I don't want to start an argument or anything, but we've had plenty of discussions in the forum about an album before its street date, and you made comments about how you liked or didn't, etc. A couple that I can think of are Revamp and Sabaton (which you admitted downloading it beforehand). Where do you get these from, if you're saying that you "never downloaded?" I mean, you said yourself you did it with Sabaton, so I am confused.

I will admit that I do check albums out by downloading them before buying them, and I buy a *LOT* of CDs. I also get digital promos in advance, so a lot of the albums I listen to in advance are technically legal (I don't share them nor do I keep these promos). But I will never be a hypocrite (not calling you one either) and say I don't download, because I do. As some said earlier, it's not a matter of trying to stop it, but trying to adapt to it instead. I always like to ask bands what they're doing in order to adapt to this issue, and most don't have an answer.. It's interesting...

 

[Diabolik]

As someone who buys 150-250 CDs a year, surely you've noticed at least one or two occasions where record labels have done this? I thought they've been doing it forever! Digipaks, bonus tracks, "limited editions", blah blah blah.

If you go to amazon.com, you'll even see almost your exact prices for most albums they sell. ~$16 for the CD, with a link to the $8 mp3 version.

Neil

not to the exteme I was talking about. Most price differences between the 2 different versions in stores now are a few dollars different. I am talking about a bigger price difference. I am also not talking about downloading the mp3. The barebones disc I am suggesting is the jewel case / cd / cover art. the deluxe has the linear notes / lyrics / pictures / bonus tracks and so on.

 

[TribunalRecords]

I wouldn't say it's so much theft as much as it is advances in technology, though. Wasn't it common to make copies of tapes back in the 80s?

The "theft" comes along with the new way music is viewed in our society. Yeah it might suck...but complaining isn't going to do anything at all. It never has. Just makes you look like a sore loser.

I buy a lot of vinyl. Don't buy CDs at all. So I'm not exactly at the forefront of music purchasing technology. I just think that it's dumb to complain and complain and complain but not actually try to DO anything to fight off your problems.

yes, making copies of a tape in the 80s isn't even close in comparison to digital downloading.

when was the last time you made a copy of a CD and put it in a mailer and sent it to a buddy across the country or the world? that is what trading tapes was about. same principle yes, but totally different. like the Harris vs Myung debate.

so calling something what it is, is being a sore loser? that is absolutely hilarious. theft is theft, just calling it what it is. and if that makes me a sore loser i think i can live with the tag since it's my livelihood for the last decade. i have been called plenty of other names far worse than sore loser. haha. plus i am not complaining about anything, illegal downloading is a fact of life at this point, but i will point out theft even if i myself am a thief at times.

 

[Diabolik]

I typically agree with you, but in terms of the movie industry being worse off, I'll have to disagree. I'll limit this response though as it probably is a conversation I will be starting in the lounge. I'm trying to get into the film industry, so I do know a bit about this. Yes, they have people downloading as well, but if you look at weekend box offices, they aren't hurting. Yes, a lot of films aren't shown nationwide, but that has always been the case with indies and has nothing to do with downloading. If you or anyone else for that matter, want to continue this conversation of movie vs music piracy as I said, I'll be starting a thread on this in the lounge.


QUOTE]

I work in the television / broadcast field. With a huge interest in the movie industry and was in college for directing / editing film. The box office is hurting. I wont even go into this discussion with you since this is a music forum. I do follow the business end of film each week and have watched studios make huge mistakes and theaters too. Both industries are being hurt by downloading. I know a bunch of people who literally stopped going to the movies because they can watch an illegal copy online.
When shopping at Metal Haven I have seen people come in and look around and even tell the owner...."yeah, just downloaded this last week" or "this finally came out? I had this for months".

I do think the industry needs to makes changes in order to survive. Both industries, music and cinema. The comic book industry has made great changes to survive with online comics and stuff for the Ipad. You always have to be thinking about the next step in order to survive.

 

[TribunalRecords]

My point was that you need to get customers to WANT to buy your product. This is different than saying they have to buy it since its illegal if they don't. I see you have gone out of your way to provide extra incentive to buy the physical thing, and that is awesome, but if it doesn't work it doesn't work. Great ideas often don't sell simply because its not what the customer wants; I don't even know what the customer really wants (I'd personally like to see 3d holographic clips of my bands playing one of their songs when you open the CD).



I hope this little rant isn't directed at me. I already said previously that I don't download music (illegally OR legally). Like you and many others on this forum, I am a collector and want the physical copy for my shelf.




This is what I was trying to get across in my post. Times have changed. People's view of what is right and wrong have changed. Smoking marijuana is illegal too, but that doesn't stop people. In my eyes, anyone who smokes marijuana has no right to complain about illegally downloading music.

Hopefully my point is clear.

no my rant wasn't directed at anyone, also it wasn't a rant.


i completely agree about supply and demand and that you must create demand, but when bands work so hard touring all the time and have built fan bases over the years to only see a drop in the bucket, so to speak, in legitimate albums sales is terrible. this is where the majority of the complaints arise i believe.

again, i don't give a sh*t either way because people will do what they do until they are put in jail for it, but i will continue to say if you download illegally you are a thief and admitting it is the first step.

 

[nomisofsiman]

Simon, I don't want to start an argument or anything, but we've had plenty of discussions in the forum about an album before its street date, and you made comments about how you liked or didn't, etc. A couple that I can think of are Revamp and Sabaton (which you admitted downloading it beforehand). Where do you get these from, if you're saying that you "never downloaded?" I mean, you said yourself you did it with Sabaton, so I am confused.

I never admitted to downloading. You probably got it a little confused. I went to each band's respective Myspace and listened to a couple of tracks. That's it. Never have I downloaded, but I could see how you would get that confused. No worries.

 

[dcowboys311]

yes, making copies of a tape in the 80s isn't even close in comparison to digital downloading.

when was the last time you made a copy of a CD and put it in a mailer and sent it to a buddy across the country or the world? that is what trading tapes was about. same principle yes, but totally different. like the Harris vs Myung debate.

so calling something what it is, is being a sore loser? that is absolutely hilarious. theft is theft, just calling it what it is. and if that makes me a sore loser i think i can live with the tag since it's my livelihood for the last decade. i have been called plenty of other names far worse than sore loser. haha. plus i am not complaining about anything, illegal downloading is a fact of life at this point, but i will point out theft even if i myself am a thief at times.

What? No.
You've proven that you're doing things to try and combat the downloads, like adding extra content to your physical releases and things like that.

What do you do when someone breaks into your house and steals your things? You install better locks, maybe a security system, and buy a damn shotgun. Not just sit around and say "dang that sucks."

I also didn't know that people only made copies of tapes for people halfway across the world...not a single person made one for their best friend who lived half a mile away?

Does the shipping method make the "theft" not as harmful then? If so I'm just going to start sending copies of CDs by carrier pigeon...

 

[nomisofsiman]

QUOTE]


When shopping at Metal Haven I have seen people come in and look around and even tell the owner...."yeah, just downloaded this last week" or "this finally came out? I had this for months".
[/QUOTE]

Wow! Just wow. Those people who say things like that in a record store, that's just clear douchebaggery and being inconsiderate of a business.

 

[dcowboys311]

no my rant wasn't directed at anyone, also it wasn't a rant.


i completely agree about supply and demand and that you must create demand, but when bands work so hard touring all the time and have built fan bases over the years to only see a drop in the bucket, so to speak, in legitimate albums sales is terrible. this is where the majority of the complaints arise i believe.

again, i don't give a sh*t either way because people will do what they do until they are put in jail for it, but i will continue to say if you download illegally you are a thief and admitting it is the first step.

THIS IS ANOTHER THING!!
At least in the punk/hardcore world, every band with a demo/7'' thinks their ready for tour. They're not. They suck and can't put on a good show and then whine when they draw 2 people in Boise, Idaho.

The market's not only oversaturated with new albums but tours. People have lives and can't come out to shows 5 nights a week. Less touring might actually result in more profit since the tours are more exclusive.

Obviously this doesn't apply to bands like Metallica.