The next chapter on the Savatage Epic Novel

Frode said:
Which tunnel?!?!?!
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I don't know, that one where all of the die-hard Sava fans will be inside... lost in the dark.

They'll see the light and will think there's hope.

Only to realize seconds later that the light was actually an enormous train, riding at 95mph heading their way.

:lol:
 
AngraRULES said:
I don't know, that one where all of the die-hard Sava fans will be inside... lost in the dark.

They'll see the light and will think there's hope.

Only to realize seconds later that the light was actually an enormous train, riding at 95mph heading their way.

:lol:
Click to expand...

I am the most diehard Savatage fan there is, and I do not see a problem with Jon doing what he does now. The other fans are in a tunnel because they refuse to step outside of it due to a different band name and back drop. :loco:
 
Frode said:
I am the most diehard Savatage fan there is, and I do not see a problem with Jon doing what he does now. The other fans are in a tunnel because they refuse to step outside of it due to a different band name and back drop. :loco:
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Ditto. It's just a name. If you hear the albums or especially them live, it sounds the same. At least in my book it does.
 
I am willing to agree that JOP plays the Savatage songs really well live, probably as good if not better than the Savatage guys did. However:

1) No Zak. :(

2) JOP hasn't produced one album I like as much as anything Savatage did from Gutter Ballet through The Wake of Magellan, aside from maybe Tage Mahal.

That's really the long and the short of it for me. It's not a matter of being ignorant/bitter, I honestly just think Jon and Paul O'Neill did/do all their best work together.
Also, some of my bitterness comes from the fact that if Savatage were touring, I might have accumulated more than 1 or 2 chances to see them within 150 miles of me within the past 6 years. I doubt JOP will ever make their way back into the Northeastern US.
 
DTJeff said:
I am willing to agree that JOP plays the Savatage songs really well live, probably as good if not better than the Savatage guys did. However:

1) No Zak. :(

2) JOP hasn't produced one album I like as much as anything Savatage did from Gutter Ballet through The Wake of Magellan, aside from maybe Tage Mahal.

That's really the long and the short of it for me. It's not a matter of being ignorant/bitter, I honestly just think Jon and Paul O'Neill did/do all their best work together.
Also, some of my bitterness comes from the fact that if Savatage were touring, I might have accumulated more than 1 or 2 chances to see them within 150 miles of me within the past 6 years. I doubt JOP will ever make their way back into the Northeastern US.
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Jeff, I agree with you. I support JOP as much as anyone else here. I have all of their discs, seen them live several times, and wear my JOP shirt quite frequently. Actually, probably more than my Sava shirts! With that said, there's a reason why Oliva and O'Neill collaborated on 8 studio albums together. Apparently it worked! There's absolutely nothing wrong with supporting both JOP and the vintage Savatage years. If that's living in the past, then so be it! :rolleyes:

~Brian~
 
DTJeff said:
2) JOP hasn't produced one album I like as much as anything Savatage did from Gutter Ballet through The Wake of Magellan, aside from maybe Tage Mahal.
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I kinda agree, except that I feel JOP hasn't done anything better than the last Savatage album, the very underrated (and of their best) Poets & Madmen.
 
I agree with you on the production DTJeff. While I can't judge the new JOP yet, the first three's production was not on par with Savatage. And it wasn't in this raw type of feeling way - it just wasn't there.

Chris Caffery's solo albums are worse in that aspect. The new one has some of the worst production I've heard in a LONG time. When I first heard it, I couldn't even focus on some of the songs because the clipping and guitar sound is so bad on tracks. It's weird to me too, because you expect them to get better as they go on. Faces had the best, the second one was worst, and the third - I've heard demo's with better production.

As I've said in other threads, I do agree - I find both Jon Oliva and Paul O'Neil (Nightcastle anyone?) at their best when working together. Together = magic.
 
edgeofthorns said:
I'm trying to clarify for myself. Are you saying that Poets & Madmen is the best Savatage/Jon Oliva record ever?
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No, that would be Streets. :)

I'm just saying Poets and Madmen is the last *perfect* album Jon has done. I don't really think any of the JOP discs, or CIIC discs, or Caffery's solo albums are as good as Poets.
 
batmura said:
No, that would be Streets. :)

I'm just saying Poets and Madmen is the last *perfect* album Jon has done. I don't really think any of the JOP discs, or CIIC discs, or Caffery's solo albums are as good as Poets.
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I see. I do like P & M as well. The song Morphine Child is one of my all time favorite Sava tunes, period. I have to say that CIIC's Watching In Silence album easily ties P & M for me though.

~Brian~
 
DTJeff said:
Circle II Circle's Burden of Truth, and to a lesser extent, Watching in Silence are easily the two best post-Savatage discs by any of the projects, IMO.
Click to expand...

If I'm being honest, I'd say that Burden of Truth is a bit overrated, at least on this board. I do think it's a strong effort, but falls short for me.

~Brian~
 
Chris Caffery's solo albums are worse in that aspect. The new one has some of the worst production I've heard in a LONG time. When I first heard it, I couldn't even focus on some of the songs because the clipping and guitar sound is so bad on tracks. It's weird to me too, because you expect them to get better as they go on. Faces had the best, the second one was worst, and the third - I've heard demo's with better production.
Click to expand...

It's more than just the production..... I think his songwriting is very lacking. "Faces" is far and away the best, largely because it is the most diverse. The rest of the catalogue is all very generic "metal", and is completely and utterly unremarkable. It's sad, because I think Chris the is best showman of the entire outfit, but might be the worst song-writer.....
 
Even Faces is dull and uninspired in my opinion. The people on Caff's forum hail it as the best thing ever, but in reality, it's just weak. Caff is not a good writer and he should definitely not sing. Just get someone like John West or something.

I agree the best CIIC disc is the first, mainly because it was co-written by Jon. I consider Burden of Truth a step in the right direction after their second one -- ugh, the production on it sucks!

"Morphine Child" is amazing indeed, but my personal favourite off of P&M would be "Surrender". Jon's voice on it kills.
 
By the way, when I said that I consider P&M the last perfect Jon-related disc, my point was that it was co-written and produced by Paul O'Neill. I've always believed that Jon is great on his own, but he becomes the best when he works with Paul.
 
I think Faces is a great and unique record with some really cool stuff on it, a pretty fun listen on the whole. There's a couple of songs on House of Insanity I like (Seasons Change, Solitaire, a couple others), but aside from that, his solo stuff is pretty crap I think. Not gonna kiss ass just because I played with him.

Regarding Burden of Truth: I just love it to death - I think every song on that album was killer, the whole band performed really well, lyrics were good, and the production was great - it's honestly one of my favorite records, period.
 
I think JOP's Maniacal Renderings was as good as most Sava records, except STREETS, GB and HOMK. It took me a long while to get used to Global Warning, but I think it' pure genius. Jon is growing as a composer and lyricist. Keep in mind his favorite band was the Beatles and his work is really showing that now. My $.02.

Chris :headbang:
 
It honestly kinda bothers me that Jon won't do a full on piano ballad anymore. Everything he does that's ballady has to have a folky-sort of acoustic guitar-driven vibe, or be part of a bigger song. JOP doesn't ever do anything along the lines of Believe, If I Go Away, When the Crowds are Gone, etc.
 
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