AeonicSlumber
srs
- Aug 14, 2008
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Building a new music industry?
- Thread starter Dustin
- Start date
I have to think that the mid-80s to mid-90s boom had a lot to do with people switching their collections to CD. And of course once that was done, sales dropped. Then there's economic conditions.
Polls of downloaders that I've heard about have shown them to be the demographics least likely to be able to buy music anyway, so we're not talking about much in the way of lost sales here. And really, when I see the kinds of sales figures bandied about for metal bands today, and compare them to ten years ago, there's no question that power and prog bands are doing better.
Polls of downloaders that I've heard about have shown them to be the demographics least likely to be able to buy music anyway, so we're not talking about much in the way of lost sales here. And really, when I see the kinds of sales figures bandied about for metal bands today, and compare them to ten years ago, there's no question that power and prog bands are doing better.
AeonicSlumber
srs
- Aug 14, 2008
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I really don't see how that makes sense at all considering the 80's and 90's had some of the greatest-selling albums of all time. In the history of music, there have never been albums that sold as much as "Thriller," "Metallica" etc in any other period. There were no 20-50 million selling albums in the 70's and there are none now. I don't see how you can justify these massive booms as "people switching their collections to CDs."
The fact of the matter is that all business have a peak, and that was the peak for the music industry in terms of sales. This decade (and perhaps the next one) is going to be a peak period for video games, as there were simply no titles that sold 20 million units in the 80's and 90's. In fact, games that sold 300,000 units in the 80's and 90's were considered massive successes whereas here and now they are massive failures. Ironically, it is about as easy in this day and age to pirate games as it is to pirate music. The masses just have different priorities for their respective disposable incomes.
The fact of the matter is that all business have a peak, and that was the peak for the music industry in terms of sales. This decade (and perhaps the next one) is going to be a peak period for video games, as there were simply no titles that sold 20 million units in the 80's and 90's. In fact, games that sold 300,000 units in the 80's and 90's were considered massive successes whereas here and now they are massive failures. Ironically, it is about as easy in this day and age to pirate games as it is to pirate music. The masses just have different priorities for their respective disposable incomes.
Pelata
FINAL SIGN
Switching over to CD is certainly a small contributing factor to the sheer numbers of CDs sold in the late 80s into the 90s...people rebuying Pink Floyd, Boston, Michael Jackson, The Eagles, pre-Black Metallica, The Beatles, etc on CD...that would certainly make numbers swell. But, as AS said, busiensses have peaks and that was it.
Speaking for myslef, I did not start buying on CD until 1992 or so...before that I was still buying cassettes....
Speaking for myslef, I did not start buying on CD until 1992 or so...before that I was still buying cassettes....
I know it was 93 when I started buying CDs over cassettes. Metal Blade released The best of Warlord on CD, and I didnt have any of their albums at all, so I bought it so I could actually have some of their material
and didnt own a CD player yet! I purchased a Sony Discman a few weeks later with a cassette adapter and car charger (I think I spent about $150 back then for everything!) so I could actually listen to it in my car and at work, and started converting everything over at that point. The last rack of cassettes I saw on sale at a retail store was at a Media Play (now FYE) in West Valley around 95-96, they were going for $4.99-$6.99 a whack when they used to be $10.00-$12.99. CDs were going for $12.99-$15.99 respectively at that time. After that
cassettes literally just vanished from all retailers.
So when did CDs hit the market 85-86? So 10 years after they came out, cassettes were gone. Cassettes came about mmm .. what was it, 78-79? But really didnt become a prevalent item until the early 80s? I started buying cassettes in 87 and dont remember ever seeing vinyl in the stores just Cassettes and CDs, and after confirming with my dad, who is a retired radio DJ, he claims the last 45 or LP he bought in a retail chain was in 91 and for nearly half the normal price at which point he said they were gone, or at least, not print 45 singles anymore. He knew it was coming, but at that point, was retiring from the business and didnt purse changing over to cassettes or CD. So each new format change took about a decade to overtake the older one.
With that in mind, when did MP3s become a mainstay? Late 90s to early 00? If we were to look at the history for the change in formats, then right now, wouldnt we see CD prices being slashed and copies on the shelves becoming scarce? Well, its not happening, its pretty much the opposite. Kind of interesting. I personally prefer buying CDs and having a hard copy back up and ripping them down for portability and convenience, but doesnt it seem like the industry is stubbornly standing their ground on CDs staying power concerning price and availability, as if its their last hurrah to a pending grim death? Isnt it odd that you can get an entire album, unbundles, for LESS in MP3 format?
It almost seems like a stalemate.
I have a theory and thats all it is. Using the history lesson above, could the industry be feeding off of consumers like us who are NOT moving away from CDs? We are slowly becoming a minority consumer for said product, and yet, its almost seems as if CDs are priced to sell like they are a RARE commodity rather than an becoming an OBSOLETE one.
So when did CDs hit the market 85-86? So 10 years after they came out, cassettes were gone. Cassettes came about mmm .. what was it, 78-79? But really didnt become a prevalent item until the early 80s? I started buying cassettes in 87 and dont remember ever seeing vinyl in the stores just Cassettes and CDs, and after confirming with my dad, who is a retired radio DJ, he claims the last 45 or LP he bought in a retail chain was in 91 and for nearly half the normal price at which point he said they were gone, or at least, not print 45 singles anymore. He knew it was coming, but at that point, was retiring from the business and didnt purse changing over to cassettes or CD. So each new format change took about a decade to overtake the older one.
With that in mind, when did MP3s become a mainstay? Late 90s to early 00? If we were to look at the history for the change in formats, then right now, wouldnt we see CD prices being slashed and copies on the shelves becoming scarce? Well, its not happening, its pretty much the opposite. Kind of interesting. I personally prefer buying CDs and having a hard copy back up and ripping them down for portability and convenience, but doesnt it seem like the industry is stubbornly standing their ground on CDs staying power concerning price and availability, as if its their last hurrah to a pending grim death? Isnt it odd that you can get an entire album, unbundles, for LESS in MP3 format?
It almost seems like a stalemate.
I have a theory and thats all it is. Using the history lesson above, could the industry be feeding off of consumers like us who are NOT moving away from CDs? We are slowly becoming a minority consumer for said product, and yet, its almost seems as if CDs are priced to sell like they are a RARE commodity rather than an becoming an OBSOLETE one.
Not only do I think it is not odd, I would be upset if they were charging more for MP3s. Overall, we get less with MP3s: lossy format, no hardcopy and no booklet.
Unlike you, I don't think CDs are going obsolete anytime soon, at least with the failure of the industry to develop a high def (SACD, DVD-A) format.
Pelata
FINAL SIGN
They still sell hundreds of millions of CDs a year (that they can count) they'd be nuts to wipe it out...if anything, they should be cheaper now...why did CDs cost $15.99 15 years ago and STILL cost $15.99??
MEGALOUD
The Nightmare Has Begun..
Lot's of food for thought here for sure... the way I see it, some of what has been said is true, and some is conjecture
(Questimation). And further yet, I believe it really varies depending on who the artist, or label, or market is.
For the most part I think people if they're smart, will let the Labels do the A & R and find the quality bands, it's always been their role to find the diamond in the ruff, or the polished opal and make it available to the market(s) that it should be promoted in. Prog Power metal is a small nitch in music I'm afraid... but it's one that I personally know and love, so it's where I spend my time as an artist and label.
Sales statements and budgets mentioned before this, I see as possible but unlikely in this day and age, and sales numbers may or may not include (non-sound scan) numbers which I think for many indies would be a lot higher (if they're any good that is).
But also the statements of big sales numbers from major artists are just not happening, and therefore it's pretty obvious neither are the promotional or touring budgets.
I like the (digital) single idea, but the main problem is, converting the existing market of consumers to buy into that new model, when they've always gotten albums. And you have to realize that a transaction for 1 single at .99 cents, a third of that money goes to the credit card company before the servicing company like itunes get's their end. Itunes is one of the higher paying companies for digital and thankfully, they're also the biggest seller of digital, at the moment around 80% of all digital revenues Nightmare is seeing is from itunes.
The bottom line is creating a model that can support volume, volume of sales would mean in my mind, asking a lot less for an album, digitally this can happen, but it's not possible with physical copies unless you have an artist that can move a lot of product, bringing the printing costs down. You still have a big shipping cost issues, where as with digital, that is all gone, enabling the artist & label to make more money for a lot less to the consumer.
If people would buy their albums digitally for the most part, at say, 4.99-6.99 and if they really really love the album and are willing to spend the money to get the physical album and some other band merch. I think this is the way to go... If a band can sell enough to justify going on tour (costs are not cheap for this) But this would be used as a gauge to find strong enough markets in sales for an appearance, they could systematically build.
But trust me when I say, there are a lot and I do mean a lot of roads to work in order to get all the angles to get a band to build to anything these days. What I'm seeing more and more, are bands that just want their music out, and are willing to spend money to record either in their own studios, self produced, or if someone in the band has big pockets to pull from, with well established producers and studios. Then throw it out there just for people to hear. Many have given up on the dream of being able to make (ANY) money back let alone make a living at this anymore... it's simply sad that this art form like so many others have been destroyed by the digital world we thought would make it all better.
Some of why this happened so quickly is the labels are no longer album to create the "false perceptions of greatness" to create a fabricated illusion of an artists popularity, some are economy, some are technology making so much mass of music available, some are the "entitlement" that torrents have created and I'm sure a ton of other things that I have not the time to recall or put here.
I think the simple reality is that cheaper music and quality labels will be the survivors and that's why I've been lowering the prices for Nightmare releases, it's been working to move more volume of product, and I see this as something we're moving more into and offering products even lower to create more buzz and sales and build the artists. After all if sound scan reported all the torrents downloads too, we'd see A HUGE amount of platinum records
the music is getting out there, it's just not being paid for.
(Questimation). And further yet, I believe it really varies depending on who the artist, or label, or market is.
For the most part I think people if they're smart, will let the Labels do the A & R and find the quality bands, it's always been their role to find the diamond in the ruff, or the polished opal and make it available to the market(s) that it should be promoted in. Prog Power metal is a small nitch in music I'm afraid... but it's one that I personally know and love, so it's where I spend my time as an artist and label.
Sales statements and budgets mentioned before this, I see as possible but unlikely in this day and age, and sales numbers may or may not include (non-sound scan) numbers which I think for many indies would be a lot higher (if they're any good that is).
But also the statements of big sales numbers from major artists are just not happening, and therefore it's pretty obvious neither are the promotional or touring budgets.
I like the (digital) single idea, but the main problem is, converting the existing market of consumers to buy into that new model, when they've always gotten albums. And you have to realize that a transaction for 1 single at .99 cents, a third of that money goes to the credit card company before the servicing company like itunes get's their end. Itunes is one of the higher paying companies for digital and thankfully, they're also the biggest seller of digital, at the moment around 80% of all digital revenues Nightmare is seeing is from itunes.
The bottom line is creating a model that can support volume, volume of sales would mean in my mind, asking a lot less for an album, digitally this can happen, but it's not possible with physical copies unless you have an artist that can move a lot of product, bringing the printing costs down. You still have a big shipping cost issues, where as with digital, that is all gone, enabling the artist & label to make more money for a lot less to the consumer.
If people would buy their albums digitally for the most part, at say, 4.99-6.99 and if they really really love the album and are willing to spend the money to get the physical album and some other band merch. I think this is the way to go... If a band can sell enough to justify going on tour (costs are not cheap for this) But this would be used as a gauge to find strong enough markets in sales for an appearance, they could systematically build.
But trust me when I say, there are a lot and I do mean a lot of roads to work in order to get all the angles to get a band to build to anything these days. What I'm seeing more and more, are bands that just want their music out, and are willing to spend money to record either in their own studios, self produced, or if someone in the band has big pockets to pull from, with well established producers and studios. Then throw it out there just for people to hear. Many have given up on the dream of being able to make (ANY) money back let alone make a living at this anymore... it's simply sad that this art form like so many others have been destroyed by the digital world we thought would make it all better.
Some of why this happened so quickly is the labels are no longer album to create the "false perceptions of greatness" to create a fabricated illusion of an artists popularity, some are economy, some are technology making so much mass of music available, some are the "entitlement" that torrents have created and I'm sure a ton of other things that I have not the time to recall or put here.
I think the simple reality is that cheaper music and quality labels will be the survivors and that's why I've been lowering the prices for Nightmare releases, it's been working to move more volume of product, and I see this as something we're moving more into and offering products even lower to create more buzz and sales and build the artists. After all if sound scan reported all the torrents downloads too, we'd see A HUGE amount of platinum records
the music is getting out there, it's just not being paid for.
MEGALOUD
The Nightmare Has Begun..
lol depends greatly on what torrent your looking on and greatly what you enter in the search engine to produce different results listings are under (different things), I spend no time on torrents typically, but the torrent I checked... when a band's manager had brought it up to me about a year ago..... (and I can't remember what it was at the moment), did indeed have over 85,000 downloads of that one album.... And bonus, many many of our other releases all had similar numbers.
This all on just ONE torrent.
Perhaps it was the most popular one? Don't know... but I do know the figures are what was represented on the site.
AeonicSlumber
srs
- Aug 14, 2008
- 4,893
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- 36
Are you looking at clickthroughs/hits or actual downloads? I as well find that number a bit hard to believe.
dcowboys311
Member
I know how to use torrents and what to search for...been using them for half my life. I just did a search on a few of the most popular sites and couldn't even find numbers nearing the hundreds (and two of these sites are torrent search engines, which compile results from many other popular sites). What you might be confusing them with (and I don't blame you if you are since many of these sites look like garbage) are some advertisements that some have. For example if you enter 'halcyon way' the results will be at the bottom of the page, but at the top it will have something like:
halcyon way - Full Download
halcyon way [2010]
etc with numbers in the thousands next to them. However these aren't links to torrents, they're just links to other sites that run you in circles and circles. But they don't contain any accurate data or anything...just an easy way for them to make some advertising revenue.
halcyon way - Full Download
halcyon way [2010]
etc with numbers in the thousands next to them. However these aren't links to torrents, they're just links to other sites that run you in circles and circles. But they don't contain any accurate data or anything...just an easy way for them to make some advertising revenue.
halcyonwayband@aol.com
Guitars - Halcyon Way
- Nov 9, 2003
- 1,062
- 0
- 36
Not really. Do you go for a name producer, or Joe Schmoe down the street? It's a value call, and you have to decide as an artist of you're wanting to compete with the best in the business or be content with a product that could have been better. Since we're talking about your legacy as an artist here, to me it's pretty simple....you put out the best product possible at the time, without compromise.
For me, the cost of my studio is a sunk cost....I'd already spent the money and recorded an album in it, and done the preproduction for the new one. So it was a question of either DIY, with likely sub-par results, or a local guy that maybe had the skills but not the ear for what exactly we wanted, or do it 110% and get the guy we wanted.
As far as what we spent on our new album....I won't go into details on our costs or on individual expenses because it would be unfair for the people we hired to have their rates on a forum, and its not anyone elses business either, but we spent money on the following, and you can decide if we "got ripped off".
Art: Travis Smith
Producer: Lasse Lammert from Germany, requiring airfare to the US and expenses, plus his fee.
guest Musicians: Pamela Moore (hourly rate + airfare and expenses), strings, keys, choir tracked on location
Drums: 16 songs tracked over 5-6 sessions in a top Atlanta studio with a well known engineer on vintage gear with high end mics and pres
Various gear rental (Neumann u87 especially for vox, this is a $4k mic)
Now as to having my own rig, we probably saved $7500+ in studio rental by tracking guitars, vocals, and bass on my rig. So anyone that says that an indie band got ripped off if they spent $20k on a CD is flat wrong, they simply haven't called around to real players in the business to get rates for making an album at a high level. Is it the cheapest way to do it? Definitely not. But it's not a ripoff. It's the difference between doing it "indie" and doing it the way the big boys do.
Element_man
Lord of the Realm
Aye, I'm with you on this one. Your production quality should be competitive in this day and age to turn some heads. Plus, working with a name producer, a name artist and so forth gives you a nice thing called "leverage" which may not pay off immediately, but could be a very valueble asset in the future.
halcyonwayband@aol.com
Guitars - Halcyon Way
- Nov 9, 2003
- 1,062
- 0
- 36
Why should they be cheaper when you've had 15 years of inflation in the general economy since then? That doesn't make sense, the prices to produce, print, ship, etc are all higher now than they were then.
Now, what I do think you're trying to say here - and I agree - is that given the fact that CDs are not selling as well, they should be cheaper to entice more to buy and create higher volume, like Lance said. That FYE experiment mentioned earlier comes to mind here - I'm personally a lot more likely to buy a CD retail if it's 9.99 or below. I feel that I can "blind buy" something and not be all pissed if I don't like it for that price. Basic economics states that supply & demand have to be in balance, and price is what defines the balance. So I totally agree with Lance here - lower price = greater volume of sales = more money for all involved. The individual profit margin shrinks on an individual CD, but it should be made up in greater volume at the right price.
halcyonwayband@aol.com
Guitars - Halcyon Way
- Nov 9, 2003
- 1,062
- 0
- 36
As an aside, I have to chuckle at all the disbelief over the numbers myself and Lance have posted here about our torrent numbers. Is it so hard to believe that NMR and HW have gotten our respective names out there beyond Atlanta (for HW) and this forum? Both of us work our asses off to promote our brands. =)
Pelata
FINAL SIGN
You chose to spend your money that way...it's not a necessity...not even to get competitive quality. More power to you...its awesome that you have your own studio. The fact that you're willing to spend that kind of money boils down to your own personal choice...and there's nothing wrong with that. I guess from that perspective, your willingness, you're not being ripped off...you're making the choice.
I've heard and been a part of albums that look and sound just as good if not better than anything else on the market that I know cost a fraction of $20,000...art, production, mix, pressing and all...
Pelata
FINAL SIGN
Also, if I may backpeddle just a tad...I realize it's an entirely different ballgame when you're talking about Pamela Moore and flying in a German producer and tracking choirs on location, etc...I'm coming more from a perspective of 5 guys tracking their record and getting it mixed, mastered and pressed...when you add in all the stuff you mentioned and renting $4k mic's, of course you're gonna run into a shit-ton of money...
Just wanted you to all know I'm not a complete idiot.
Just wanted you to all know I'm not a complete idiot.
Pellaz
Tigron of Immanion
dcowboys311
Member
When the latest Blind Guardian album only has 14.5k downloads on one of the largest torrent sites, yes, it is hard to believe that Halcyon Way has 85k downloads. It's not a knock at your band...I really enjoyed the last album actually...but if you had 85,000 people downloading your album, you'd be able to tour the states with more success than most touring bands currently have.
Pelata
FINAL SIGN
Or, like someone alluded to earlier, 85,000 downloads does not equal 85,000 fans...85,000 downloads could easily equal 84,000 deletions and 1,000 fans...
I haven't heard the new album, so that's not at all any kind of knock...I'm just saying...just because someone downloaded your album (or my album) doesn't mean they liked it or would ever have bought it.
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