Building a new music industry?

[Pelata]

Have you been to a Best Buy recently?

When you're talking Best Buy, you're talking about 90% (guess-timate) mainstream music...nothing we buy here anyway. They're shrinking available floor space for CDs meaning that there'll be less space for catalog Rock titles and best of's, less room for new Taylor Swift and Ke$ha, less room for stuff most of us here don't buy anyway...we're not losing anything.

The music industry still sells hundreds of millions of CDs a year...they're not going to delete something selling that well when they have nothing to replace it with.

 

[Pellaz]

When you're talking Best Buy, you're talking about 90% (guess-timate) mainstream music...nothing we buy here anyway.

True....but it wasn't always that way. Best Buy (at least near me) always used to carry a pretty good selection of metal. Not as good as Tower (r.i.p.) or FYE (who are relatively new to the market here), but it was worth checking, especially since their prices undercut almost everyone else's.

They're shrinking available floor space for CDs meaning that there'll be less space for catalog Rock titles and best of's, less room for new Taylor Swift and Ke, less room for stuff most of us here don't buy anyway...we're not losing anything.

It's that shrinkage I'm referring to. One of the BB's near me is down to two shelving units for ALL CDs, and that includes one rack for new releases. It's clear there's a huge rampdown taking place, and it's been happening pretty quickly.

The music industry still sells hundreds of millions of CDs a year...they're not going to delete something selling that well when they have nothing to replace it with.

Nope, not right away. But the trend is pretty obvious. It will be interesting to see how they adapt their business and sales models to compensate.

 

[halcyonwayband@aol.com]

True....but it wasn't always that way. Best Buy (at least near me) always used to carry a pretty good selection of metal. Not as good as Tower (r.i.p.) or FYE (who are relatively new to the market here), but it was worth checking, especially since their prices undercut almost everyone else's.



It's that shrinkage I'm referring to. One of the BB's near me is down to two shelving units for ALL CDs, and that includes one rack for new releases. It's clear there's a huge rampdown taking place, and it's been happening pretty quickly.



Nope, not right away. But the trend is pretty obvious. It will be interesting to see how they adapt their business and sales models to compensate.

Well, Best Buy shrinking floor space actually is a big deal. "Manifesto" was picked up and carried by Best Buy & Hot Topic and it sold pretty decently through those stores. However, NMR now distributes through Sony/RED which is a big step up from Koch which is where it was before, and we can't get "Building The Towers" in either now. The same thing is happening in Hot Topic. It's very frustrating. But make no mistake, it's having an impact.

 

[TheLongshot]

True....but it wasn't always that way. Best Buy (at least near me) always used to carry a pretty good selection of metal. Not as good as Tower (r.i.p.) or FYE (who are relatively new to the market here), but it was worth checking, especially since their prices undercut almost everyone else's.

Agreed. Since Tower went down, BB was really the only retailer left worth looking at. It still is, depending on the store.

It's that shrinkage I'm referring to. One of the BB's near me is down to two shelving units for ALL CDs, and that includes one rack for new releases. It's clear there's a huge rampdown taking place, and it's been happening pretty quickly.

It seems to vary from store-to-store. The newer stores tend to carry less CDs, but the BB I regularly go to still has 5-6 racks of CDs. But, genres have been cut down immensely.

But, I guess the question really is, are CD sales going down, or is it just that the return on the floorspace BB was giving to the music section not as good as for some other of their other products?

 

[Pelata]

I'm sure Best Buy sells more TVs and video games than CDs...

Anyway, has Hot Topic ever carried more than 20 CDs ever? LOL! I've been in 3 in my state and all 3 have always had a tiny, tiny CD section...wedged in between a giant wall of t-shirts and hoodies.

 

[Pellaz]

Anyway, has Hot Topic ever carried more than 20 CDs ever? LOL! I've been in 3 in my state and all 3 have always had a tiny, tiny CD section...wedged in between a giant wall of t-shirts and hoodies.

Hot Topic is actually my first choice for metal CDs now, since they were carrying some that I'd been looking for, like the most recent Dimmu and Avantasia, and because Best Buy isn't ordering any new metal CDs that they don't expect to sell at least XX units (I think XX is probably around 20,000). Plus, Hot Topic will often discount new releases down to $10.
I'd go to FYE, but the nearest one is a good deal further away than Hot Topic.

 

[Pelata]

Best Buy isn't ordering any new metal CDs that they don't expect to sell at least XX units (I think XX is probably around 20,000).

20k for all thier stores, right? Not per store...

 

[halcyonwayband@aol.com]

When the latest Blind Guardian album only has 14.5k downloads on one of the largest torrent sites, yes, it is hard to believe that Halcyon Way has 85k downloads. It's not a knock at your band...I really enjoyed the last album actually...but if you had 85,000 people downloading your album, you'd be able to tour the states with more success than most touring bands currently have.

True...but all I can tell ya is that the numbers were what they were.....and Lance came on here and corroborated what I said. Glad you dug the album incidentally, bro! Also, not saying that HW is on the same level as BG, but that album has only been out a few months whereas "Manifesto" has been out over 2 years. And think about it....just as an aside. 14,500 torrents of the new BG @ $5/copy wholesale from the label to the distributor = $72,500 that the label lost on that one site. That would go a long way towards SOMETHING, whether it be support for BG, or money in the bank for other bands to be developed. Crazy numbers....

 

[halcyonwayband@aol.com]

20k for all thier stores, right? Not per store...

I think it's total sales via SoundScan, not BB themselves.

 

[Pelata]

I think it's total sales via SoundScan, not BB themselves.

No, she said basically Best Buy won't order CD's that don't sell at least XX units...she estimated "XX" to be around 20k...I was just seeing if that was a title selling 20k per store or a title selling 20k over all thier stores?

 

[TheLongshot]

No, she said basically Best Buy won't order CD's that don't sell at least XX units...she estimated "XX" to be around 20k...I was just seeing if that was a title selling 20k per store or a title selling 20k over all thier stores?

"She"? Paul is very much a dude..

 

[Pelata]

Very much my bad...

 

[Dustin]

Very much my bad...

Umm... you mean Pellaz = Paul = is a guy? ... or is it Paulette in this case?

Alright, alright, re-thread jacking and getting back to the original subject...

It appears everyone here agrees: There is too way too much music out there. What seems to be continuously overlooked on this subject is the "why" and "how". Once we narrow it down to the technology race and the issue of DIY, we all seem to jump onto the piracy subject out the gates again, but truthfully, this isn't "why" there is too much music - Yes, it's a problem, we can all agree on that as well, but it's not the actual "why" there is so much music out there.

This is MY theory once again on the why - the free market concept. What if, for their services to unsigned artists, places like Amazon and iTunes charged and "up-front" fee for distribution or "return fee" if their stuff doesn't sell in a certain time frame like physical distributors do, instead of collecting on the back end after it's already sold? Or, if MySpace and Reverbnation charged a fee for their services, being they are offering a dumbed down service like A&R/band managers/booking agents? Do you think it would narrow the gap, or possibly reduce the amount of artist/music flooding the market? Would it raise the quality of artist? Just a thought and of course, just speculating here....
The initial complaint: Too many indie bands/artist, too many minor or indie labels, and everyone competing on a now level playing field in the digital age, vying for each others fans and their money. So what's going to allow NEW artist to stand out in this massive mess? My thoughts are ...the artist(s) that has the disposable income or working capitol, or even who has sponsors or private investors to make it happen. For example, If all labels big and small were to disappear, this is where it would probably to go. Of course, that most likely won't happen, but food for thought.

I tried to dig up some evidence of this, but came up empty - if anyone can find the articles to prove it would be helpful - but I know for a fact he has mentioned this: Steve Jobs has, on several occasion, mentioned he believes in a "free market" for music, by this, he means that all artist big and small could have a place to sell their music without dealing directly through labels, and that this was one of his goals. On the surface, this is a profound and revolutionary idea for unsigned/indie artist to get their chance and get out there and compete on a whole new level that was never available to them previously, but at the same time, is this REALLY a good idea in the end?

All the semi-pro's that have chimed in on this topic have also said "Touring isn't the answer to making your money back", and that it in itself, is an extreme expense, with other very valid points as to why. So what is a good solution? Seriously, anyone have a good idea... a good guess? LOL!

In fact, I saw this the other day. Not a fan of his bands, but I thought it was interesting to read what Jim Root had to say about the state of affairs from his point of view. In a round about way, He pretty much nails it down that the money is in touring right now, and yet, that's only a temporary fix and works for larger artists. Due to the technology race and there being too many bands out there competing on a level playing field - The last paragraph is the money shot.

http://www.roadrunnerrecords.com/blabbermouth.net/news.aspx?mode=Article&newsitemID=151996

The 50/50 contract is sort of what most minor labels (at least in our genre) have been doing for years. The other option is the controversial 360 deal, which the majors are leaning more towards everyday.
What is everyone's thoughts on these two options? Will either of these new deals between artist and labels cure the industries shortcomings? Or is it all a just a fart in the wind in the long run?

 

[adaher]

A few tangents:

One of the things we've been warned about with piracy is that artists would be less likely to make music. But at least for now, we're seeing the opposite: a ton of music out there, "too much" to some.

I think that somewhere there is always some genius who will come up with a business model that will work given changing technology making the old ways untenable. Eventually someone will come up with a bright new idea that doesn't depend on selling albums as the primary moneymaker and everyone else will follow suit.

One thing I've wondered why no one has tried given the potential of the internet, is doing live concerts over the internet from a studio.

Why not take a page from porn? No, I don't mean playing naked. Porn has suffered from piracy as well, but doesn't really need to thrive on DVD sales anymore. Website memberships are where it's at, with consistent updates, live webcams, and member requests.

Consistent updates: the song a week I was talking about earlier in this thread.
Live webcams: Live shows once every once in awhile.
Member requests: Loyal members who have supported the band for awhile can make requests for new songs, like "Ooh! I loved your last song about Eagles! Can you write a speedy, epic song about pigeons this time?"

 

[Pellaz]

20k for all thier stores, right? Not per store...

Right, 20k (or something similar) for all stores. Which eliminates most smaller bands and labels in favor of established, big-selling artists, and Best Buy's store shelves reflect that.

"She"? Paul is very much a dude..

Sheesh, I go away for 90 minutes on a snow-day with everyone stuck inside and on the Intertubez and LOOK what happens!

 

[AeonicSlumber]

A few tangents:

One of the things we've been warned about with piracy is that artists would be less likely to make music. But at least for now, we're seeing the opposite: a ton of music out there, "too much" to some.

I've never heard anyone say that. What I have heard, is that piracy supposedly driving down sales will mean smaller budgets for bands and that music will have to be recorded cheaper in order for it to be viable, which is 100% true. Even if you build your own studio, it's a several thousand dollar investment and years of engineering education (whether formal or informal, it does not happen overnight).

One thing I've wondered why no one has tried given the potential of the internet, is doing live concerts over the internet from a studio.

Well more and more we're seeing festivals being streamed live. Download was streamed live and so was Graspop for a while and their sites probably made some bank from advertising off that. I know Wacken offers a premium service that you can subscribe to and catch every band via livestream. I think the idea of watching a band perform live in a studio is pretty ridiculous though...why not just listen to the CD or watch a music video?

Why not take a page from porn? No, I don't mean playing naked. Porn has suffered from piracy as well, but doesn't really need to thrive on DVD sales anymore. Website memberships are where it's at, with consistent updates, live webcams, and member requests.

For one thing, the porn industry is doing horribly right now so once again, for the billionth time, I have no idea what you're talking about. How could taking a page from a failing industry be good business? Business rule 101: copy what's successful.

Consistent updates: the song a week I was talking about earlier in this thread.

You said once per month earlier. And you didn't specify whether that was physical or digital. A physical release once per month is suicidal, once per week is physically and logistically impossible. And again, putting product out once per week whether digital or not is over saturating the fanbase.

Live webcams: Live shows once every once in awhile.

This exists but it's not up to the band per se...

Member requests: Loyal members who have supported the band for awhile can make requests for new songs, like "Ooh! I loved your last song about Eagles! Can you write a speedy, epic song about pigeons this time?"

This is just ridiculous and downright undermining/insulting. Bands are not your servants/monkeys.

 

[adaher]

I think that's a romanticized view of selling music. Reality check: If you're writing music and you don't care about selling it, you're making art. If you're writing music hoping to make money, you're making a product without any more or less pride than a chef preparing a meal. The chef knows who he has to please. The musician is sometimes under the impression that people are paying him to please himself.

When you're in it as a business, you have customers, and you work for them.

 

[AeonicSlumber]

I think that's a romanticized view of selling music. Reality check: If you're writing music and you don't care about selling it, you're making art. If you're writing music hoping to make money, you're making a product without any more or less pride than a chef preparing a meal. The chef knows who he has to please. The musician is sometimes under the impression that people are paying him to please himself.

When you're in it as a business, you have customers, and you work for them.

lol... I'm at a loss for words as to how ridiculous this is. Sorry, but it's obvious you have no idea what you're talking about whatsoever as evidenced by your whacky theories and delusion that you think bands should have to suck your musical wiener for money.

 

[Harvester]

ASlumber,

Regardless of what you think (and I agree with you on your points), there is something called "tact." Please consider using it occasionally as I consider you a valuable forum member. Otherwise, your message gets lost in the delivery.

 

[MEGALOUD]

I know how to use torrents and what to search for...been using them for half my life. I just did a search on a few of the most popular sites and couldn't even find numbers nearing the hundreds (and two of these sites are torrent search engines, which compile results from many other popular sites). What you might be confusing them with (and I don't blame you if you are since many of these sites look like garbage) are some advertisements that some have. For example if you enter 'halcyon way' the results will be at the bottom of the page, but at the top it will have something like:

halcyon way - Full Download
halcyon way [2010]

etc with numbers in the thousands next to them. However these aren't links to torrents, they're just links to other sites that run you in circles and circles. But they don't contain any accurate data or anything...just an easy way for them to make some advertising revenue.

Well awesome for you...and too bad for the musical community.
I would say this to you, you probably didn't consider the fact that we as a label and our artists would have worked hard to have these things removed would you? !