Is the death of the CD looming?

[cslebn]

Have you guys never ended up liking something that you didn't expect you'd like? Your predictions about your own behavior and likes/dislikes are always 100% accurate? If you've tried buying an electronic download, and haven't felt satisfied, that's totally cool, I completely understand. But if you haven't tried it, how can you be so sure? Especially since I was once the same way with buying and placing my CDs on my rack to get that "ownership" feeling.

Having downloaded albums from itunes and other sources, I just haven't found it as satisfactory, but more than that I find I play those albums less. I went and got a decent enough stereo years ago and I love cranking up music on it. My pc on the other hand I dedicated my dollars towards making it a higher powered machine (gaming and recording wise) and got really good headphones for it. There's something missing about not searching my shelves for just the right disc and being able to put a CD in my player and just blaring it. Sure I could burn copies of all my downloaded files and then play them that way but I think that defeats the main reason most people download.

Another thing I have found is I really enjoy the search. The hunt for the elusive album. And you get a hint of that doing it online, it is still less than the feeling of elation I get when I'm at Progpower and I find that one cd that I never imagined existed, let alone hoped to find. So I think there is something to be said about the process of finding your music and possessing it. Further along those lines, Jasonic mentioned some poeple treat it as a collection. I certainly am one of those people. It just isn't as tangible to say I've taken up 75% of my HD space as it is to say I've taken up 75% of my fmily room (or house) with my collection. Well at least I dream about my colleciton being that large. But my point is the collector mentality is most likely looking for something tangible to be a pack rat about.

While these views (or vices) may not be the mainstream market that drives majority of sales, I don't think you can discount them either. After all how many people by the Gibson limited edition Jimmy Page Double neck guitar for thousands of dollars so they can say they have one while it sits unplayed?

 

[General Zod]

I end up not replacing the files because I like to be able to see the play counts I have amassed via Itunes.

This.

iTunes really needs to have a feature that allows you to select a group of files and set the play count to any number you like.

 

[Jasonic]

This is a very good point. For the first time ever for me I have zero interest in having to have every single format of my favorite band's new album (Iron Maiden). I just have my MP3 download on preorder and that's it. In 2006 when AMOLAD came out I had like 5 different versions of it, I just can't justify that anymore.

You're not going to get the deluxe version with the game?????

I know what you mean though.
There are MANY CDs I have purchased in the past couple of years where I literally opened the packaging, ripped it to my laptop, then ripped to my IPOD.
The CD is just on a shelf.

Sometimes I do bring the physical CD in the car for a couple weeks, because I don't care what ANYONE says. I still notice the difference in listening to a CD VS listening to an MP3. (I suppose that could be me though not taking the time to adjust the ripping rate for everything I rip to PC, but never going to bother to take the time to do that)

 

[drmetal8]

This isn't a new topic, but it's interesting to see it resurface every once in a while, because as time goes on, opinions seem to be slowly shifting. Of all the times I've seen this topic discussed, this one by far has the most people saying that they now buy electronically.

From my perspective, it has some interesting echoes of The Great Vocal-Tolerance Shift which happened around the turn of the century. "I'm not paying for a god damned file on my computer" sounds very much like "I'll never listen to those idiotic cookie-monster vocals!" often heard among prog/power-metal fans in the past. But these days, after a steady drumbeat of threads titled "I bought my first growly-vocaled album, it's awesome, what else like this can you recommend?", the militant anti-cookie-monster faction is now a small minority among prog/power fandom. I see a similar shift underway with music-purchasing habits.



Sure, but how many? Old + "not hip to the internet" generally means "not buying a whole lot of music". Record labels aren't going to go to the expense of manufacturing CDs if 10,000 people want an electronic format and only 1000 people want CD format. They'll just drop it. So people who want CDs will last longer than CDs will.



Maybe that's the problem. Perhaps you should actually try buying an electronic album once. You might be surprised how you feel about it. For me, I totally get a feeling of "ownership" once I pay for an official electronic version of an album that I'd previously downloaded for free. Even if I had the illicit version on my hard drive for months, I'll suddenly start listening to the "official" version way more than I ever sampled the illicit version. Like you, before I actually tried buying an electronic album, I had no idea that there would be a psychological difference for me, but there is. So it's really not that scary! Give it a try sometime, better to do it once now and find out you don't like it, than do it 5 years from now and wonder why the hell you spent years wasting all that money on physical formats.




All downloads from the major vendors come with artwork these days. But yes, the continued lack of embedded lyrics and credits is the largest deficiency in the format.



So all your computer software is free/stolen then? The reluctance to pay for "a file" is weird to me. The "file" is what contains the music that you listen to, which, in my mind, is the whole point of buying music. That file used to be stored on a piece of plastic, now it's stored on a piece of magnetized metal or silicon. So what? A refusal to pay for "a file" implies that you place 100% of the value of a CD in the packaging, with no value on the music that the artist has created.



And the insane irony here is that Anathema's new album is one of those (increasingly rare) albums that still is not available via electronic distribution! Argh, what flaming idiots!!!



Huh? No, you say it later yourself, it's the *people* who decide which media format they prefer. The manufacturers give choices, and the people select among them. If people had continued to buy cassettes and cassette players, manufacturers would have continued to make them.



haha, it's funny to see the CD now venerated so devoutly, when, for years I heard how the "cold, digital sound" with a sampling rate of only 44kHz was inferior to vinyl and then SACD/DVD-Audio.

Anyhow, there is no connection between electronically-distributed music and sound quality. You are not required to listen to mp3s through three-penny earphones. You can listen to them on your expensive stereo just like you listen to CDs, and they sound just as good. Then, if you're a real audio snob, electronic distribution allows much BETTER sound quality than the physically-limited CD. If you want to listen to 96kHz/24-bit recordings, that's a hell of a lot easier to do with electronic downloads than with a physical format, and it's outright impossible with CDs. So the idea that CD's 44kHz/16-bit is some kind of golden standard is just a belief built out of habit, not from a personal search to find the optimal level of audio fidelity for your tastes.



Were there not one-hit-wonders before this decade?

Neil

No, my computer software wasn't "free/stolen" but the original software is on a CD. It's that I put zero confidence in a computer hard drive and the file on it. Ever had a file corrupt or get lost?? The "file" is not what contains the music in my house, it's the permanent, long-lasting, 100% sound quality CD... if properly cared for, a CD will outlast us all.

Plus, I am an album cover designer who puts a lot of effort into my work, I certainly don't want to see the end of CDs or a physical medium, which will most likely see the end of CD/album covers (you know it's true.) I enjoy getting a great CD/album with a great cover and layout. Nothing like it. I will never pay money for something I can't hold in my hands, look at, put in the player and enjoy.

If you own a ton of albums that you have downloaded on your computer, congratulations, you own nothing tangible. Maybe you can get Hammerfall to autograph your hard drive.

 

[skyrefuge]

So eventually the MP3 will become obsolete. Then what?

Actually, the mp3 will probably be obsolete before the CD is. Once someone (Apple? Spotify?) figures out how to do a good, money-making streaming service, the stored mp3 could fade quickly.

In all seriousness, I already have the files. I download them when the disc leaks. Why would replacing files I downloaded from source A, with files I download from source B, come with any satisfaction whatsoever?

I don't know, I can't really explain it for myself, but it happens. I guess it's mostly because I then feel "legal", and don't feel guilty for "stealing". It's a bit harder to truly enjoy listening to an album if you've been conditioned to feel wrong about listening to it!

Smart bands will put LESS songs on an album as then its digital purchase will be more attractive, since on some sites you "pay per song"

Again, this is an issue that doesn't exist, or has already been solved. Either the album price is lower than the combined price of all the individual tracks (in the case of many tracks), or some of the tracks are available with the "album only" (in the case of few tracks). I think the way that the album is priced (whether there are "album only" tracks) is largely controlled by the label/distributor, so it's not like bands are going to somehow game the system.

Instead of buying the files I already have downloaded I would rather have the ability to go to that artists website and make a $10 donation. The bands probably benifits from a straight 10 bucks like that as compared to getting small amounts from a store bought cd, or download from Itunes or whatever.

The one problem with this is that it cuts out other parties (label, management, the other four band members, depending on who is running the website). By paying through the standardized channel, you're assuring that everyone is getting their fair share (assuming the label is honest!) But I agree, it would be nice to at least cut the distributor and retailer out of the picture.

As far as downloading paid-for mp3s and never actually using them, I don't really think that's that strange, since I really view my purchase as buying a license, not buying the music itself.

Having downloaded albums from itunes and other sources, I just haven't found it as satisfactory, but more than that I find I play those albums less. I went and got a decent enough stereo years ago and I love cranking up music on it. My pc on the other hand I dedicated my dollars towards making it a higher powered machine (gaming and recording wise) and got really good headphones for it.

Yes, I can totally understand that mp3s aren't as satisfactory if you don't have your systems set up to handle mp3s. Burning downloads to CDs just to listen to them on a stereo is an enormous waste of resources. What you need is a computing device to play mp3s through your nice stereo, and probably a way to play mp3s in your car, at work, etc.

Over time this will become more common for people, and I think that's one thing that will help the "must-own-CD!" mentality fade away.

While these views (or vices) may not be the mainstream market that drives majority of sales, I don't think you can discount them either. After all how many people by the Gibson limited edition Jimmy Page Double neck guitar for thousands of dollars so they can say they have one while it sits unplayed?

Well, this is a bit different because music formats rely on standards, and standards are defined by majorities. In that domain, niche players don't live on as niche players, they get squeezed out and die.

iTunes really needs to have a feature that allows you to select a group of files and set the play count to any number you like.

Yeah, that would be nice. There are a few solutions, none of them quite optimal. I wrote a script that would read all my play counts from another file and update them in iTunes. Nice, but you need a file with your desired counts. here is a script where you can do it manually for each song. Simpler, but probably pretty slow and annoying. The method I used to use that worked the best was to simply replace my illegal files with the legal ones (in the filesystem, without touching anything in iTunes). As long as the file names are kind of similar, iTunes uses some sort of magic and maps its internal link to point to the new file. If that doesn't work, it will tell you it can no longer find the old file, and ask you to manually give it the location of the new file. Either way, it keeps your play count and some other metadata.

Nowadays I do all my play-count tracking through my own framework, so I don't care too much about the iTunes numbers, but it would be nice if they made the play counts more manageable.

Neil

 

[TychoCelchu]

I'm a little curious about that myself. I noticed that in one of the recent iTunes upgrades, the Plus quality CD Rip is 256 variable bit rate AAC. It used to 256 constant bit rate. (I'm referring to when you put a disc you bought in the drive and rip to your computer). What I haven't found out yet is if the change to variable bit rate also applies to purchased downloads from the iTunes store or if purchases are constant bit rate.

 

[spag]

FLAC DOMINATION

We can hope.

The only reason I want CDs to hang around is that I can rip them lossless. I would hate it if all I could get anywhere is some crappy 128-bit MP3. Or worse, some DRM-based format, so I can't even use it on the device I want.

 

[skyrefuge]

Yes, of course, but that's not what was implied in my statement, I said a truckload of NEW one-hit-wonder artists, meaning more than usual.

Yeah, I know, and I should have been less snarky in my response. What I really wanted to know is, what data are you using to support that assertion? I'm generally skeptical when people make claims about music being "better" in the past, because people have a tendency to forget all the crap from a long time ago, and only remember the good stuff.

And chronologically.

As everyone should know by now, I'm a huge data nerd, so of course I had all my CD perfectly sorted alphabetically by artist, and then chronologically within each artist. But when everything is a file on your computer, the amount of sorting and organizing you can do blows away anything you can do in the physical world! Of course, this is independent of buying electronic downloads, as you get the same benefits if you simply rip your collection from CDs.

No, my computer software wasn't "free/stolen" but the original software is on a CD.

Are you sure? A lot of pre-built Windows machines don't come with a full copy of the OS on CD.

It's that I put zero confidence in a computer hard drive and the file on it.

Exactly, me neither. So that means you must have a good backup system, right? And since you're already backing up all your other files, your music files get backed up right along with them. It's immediately better than your "permanent" CDs, which are nearly impossible to make backup copies of. Yes, chances of one set of your music files getting damaged is greater than the chances of your CDs getting damaged, but it's more likely that your CDs will be damaged/stolen than losing BOTH your primary and backup copies of your music files. A "properly cared for" CD *may* outlast us all, but a series of bits copied from place to place will last an eternity.

Plus, I am an album cover designer who puts a lot of effort into my work, I certainly don't want to see the end of CDs or a physical medium, which will most likely see the end of CD/album covers (you know it's true.)

Why would that be true? Album covers are basically for marketing. Do you think labels will give up that marketing opportunity? Eventually when I go to the iTunes store, in place of the cover art there will just be a picture of a question mark or something?

I have cover art for every one of the hundreds of albums I've bought and downloaded, and I can view all of them at sizes much larger than a CD booklet.

If you own a ton of albums that you have downloaded on your computer, congratulations, you own nothing tangible.

Thanks! Personally, I don't think the cost in petroleum and trees for the plastic and paper that CD-buyers consume is *that* destructive to our environment in the whole scheme of things, but I'm glad you recognize my contribution to making this a cleaner, safer, and simpler planet for us all.

Maybe you can get Hammerfall to autograph your hard drive.

Why would I want anyone's autograph on anything? I listen to a band's music because I love music, not so that I can show off to friends that I know how to wait in line to get a stranger to deface something I own.

What's the bitrate of digital downloads these days?

First, why do you ask?

Then, it varies. Pretty much everywhere is at least 256kbps, and there are places that go up from there. But bitrate is fairly meaningless as a standalone number, since there are different formats (AAC vs. MP3), and different encoding algorithms.

Anyhow, even though the services have generally increased their bitrates in the last several years, there was never a time when stores were selling mp3s that sounded worse than CD. They basically increased the rates to combat FUD and make people feel better.

Neil

 

[skyrefuge]

What I haven't found out yet is if the change to variable bit rate also applies to purchased downloads from the iTunes store or if purchases are constant bit rate.

Is this a practical concern for you? Can you tell the difference between 256kbps VBR AAC and 256kbps CBR AAC?

The only reason I want CDs to hang around is that I can rip them lossless.

But CDs are already "lossy", so why wed yourself to that standard? If you're looking for ultimate fidelity, wouldn't it make more sense to skip CDs entirely and campaign for whatever resolution the music was recorded in (192kHz/24-bit or whatever), instead of crappy downsampled CD-quality?

I would hate it if all I could get anywhere is some crappy 128-bit MP3.

No one ever sold 128kbps mp3s, and bitrates have only increased over time, so where did you get the idea that you'd ever be forced into 128kbps mp3s?

Or worse, some DRM-based format, so I can't even use it on the device I want.

Agreed! But again, the history of electronic music distribution has been to continually move *away* from DRM, so I think chances are pretty low that we'd reverse course and go back to that (unless streaming completely takes over and makes downloading obsolete)

Neil

 

[cslebn]

campaign for whatever resolution the music was recorded in (192kHz/24-bit or whatever)

But oh the harddrive space that would take

yet there really is a noticeable difference there hahaha

 

[AngraRULES]

But oh the harddrive space that would take

It's still *considerably* less space than a one-thousand CD collection would take in your room

 

[Justin G]

While I have no doubt the CD will gradually disappear from mainstream outlets, I am confident it will remain a viable format for the music I care about. There is a collector mentality with metal fans, and we're going to continue want nice packaging, bonus DVDs, etc. It may end up being the exception to the rule, but if the vinyl collectors can hold out so can I!

I'm not opposed to MP3s though. I love my iPod, and like being able to buy b-sides individually instead of buying a $12 3-song EP for one new Circle II Circle or Masterplan track. For full albums though, I'll be a CD buyer for life. I have digital copies of several recent Frontiers titles (that I received for reviewing purposes) but I won't feel like I own the albums until I buy the CDs.

Besides that, when I no longer like a CD I have the option of trading it in or putting on ebay. There is no secondary market for MP3 files.

 

[RagePSV]

Here's another question kinda related. Does anyone still have their casette tapes? . I still have mind, but I'm torn whether or not I should just throw them away or keep them for memory purposes.....
I mean, who still plays these things?? I know that nobody on ebay would want them.

I have a few hundred boxed up at my parents house.

 

[RagePSV]

A-fucking-MEN!!

Alphabetically by band and in chronological order by release date.

Glad I'm not the only one. I listen to them in that order too...

 

[General Zod]

Yeah, that would be nice. There are a few solutions, none of them quite optimal. I wrote a script that would read all my play counts from another file and update them in iTunes. Nice, but you need a file with your desired counts. here is a script where you can do it manually for each song. Simpler, but probably pretty slow and annoying. The method I used to use that worked the best was to simply replace my illegal files with the legal ones (in the filesystem, without touching anything in iTunes).

Thanks. I've actually played around with the scripts a bit, but as you correctly point out, they're just not ideal.

As long as the file names are kind of similar, iTunes uses some sort of magic and maps its internal link to point to the new file. If that doesn't work, it will tell you it can no longer find the old file, and ask you to manually give it the location of the new file. Either way, it keeps your play count and some other metadata.

Unfortunately, the way I prefer to maintain my directory structure, isn't conducive to this strategy.

 

[dcowboys311]

You could just set up an account over at last.fm.

 

[drmetal8]

Are you sure? A lot of pre-built Windows machines don't come with a full copy of the OS on CD.

Are you kidding? I'm a Mac user. Who cares either way.

Exactly, me neither. So that means you must have a good backup system, right? And since you're already backing up all your other files, your music files get backed up right along with them. It's immediately better than your "permanent" CDs, which are nearly impossible to make backup copies of. Yes, chances of one set of your music files getting damaged is greater than the chances of your CDs getting damaged, but it's more likely that your CDs will be damaged/stolen than losing BOTH your primary and backup copies of your music files. A "properly cared for" CD *may* outlast us all, but a series of bits copied from place to place will last an eternity.

Why would it be nearly impossible to make a copy of a CD? And why would I want to? And if I lost a CD, I would replace it if possible.

Why would that be true? Album covers are basically for marketing. Do you think labels will give up that marketing opportunity? Eventually when I go to the iTunes store, in place of the cover art there will just be a picture of a question mark or something?

I have cover art for every one of the hundreds of albums I've bought and downloaded, and I can view all of them at sizes much larger than a CD booklet.

Honestly, yes. I think labels (or what passes for labels) will eventually do away with album covers. Apple has tried valiantly to save the album cover with Cover Flow, but let's face it-- if a physical medium does not exist, soon there will not be an album cover because there does not need to be one. It's another cost that can be cut. I would be willing to bet that bands would not even have logos soon after that.
You'll hear conversations like "Hey-- remember 'album covers?' Haha!"

That's cool that you can view all the covers on your computer. In my opinion, that will not replace, for example, the new Nevermore digibook packaging, the Beatles box set that came out last year, the spot varnish on the new Armored Saint "La Raza" digipak or the embossed packaging of Darkology's "Altered Reflections". These are just a few examples off the top of my head. That type of work should continue to exist, and hopefully it will.

Thanks! Personally, I don't think the cost in petroleum and trees for the plastic and paper that CD-buyers consume is *that* destructive to our environment in the whole scheme of things, but I'm glad you recognize my contribution to making this a cleaner, safer, and simpler planet for us all.

Give me a break. It's resources well used as far as I'm concerned.

Why would I want anyone's autograph on anything? I listen to a band's music because I love music, not so that I can show off to friends that I know how to wait in line to get a stranger to deface something I own.

A lot of my CD collection is autographed. I love to get an artist to autograph their work. It makes it more personal and valuable to me. (I never get the cover autographed, thus preserving the art.) Sorry you do not share in that joy. Based on the long lines at Prog Power, you are in the minority. I also like meeting and getting photos with the artists. These guys (and gals) are heroes to me. Music is that important to me.


Thanks for the back and forth. I don't really have much else to say about it. So feel free to reply with your opinion again. You have your opinion and I have mine. Whoever gets my CD collection after I die will get one hell of a collection.

 

[TribunalRecords]

i forgot to mention something. i am not for the pirating of music, but i deliberately STEAL digital only releases. if i am not provided a physical option i WILL NOT pay for a digital medium, ever. if i pay for something i want a physical item in my hand. call me old-fashioned, but that is me and who i am.

 

[TribunalRecords]

Whoever gets my CD collection after I die will get one hell of a collection.

Amen, mine is over 9,000 and counting. i live and die by my sword. Jeremy and Justin are on my list of people who get to go through it all. haha.

 

[Diabolik]

It is interesting to read everyones opinion on this. For me....I will always stand behind a physical product. Right now the comic book industry is going through the same thing. Marvel has a nice online digital thing going where you pay a monthly fee to be able to read thousands of new and back issues. Each month there is new stuff added. I think we are definetly in an age of change. Technology is always being updated and things change. It is going to boil down to the consumer and where money is being made. Look at the rise and fall of DVD's. When it first hit the market there was only a small percentage of people who before DVD had laser disc. These were collector types. It wasnt a normal thing for the average person to have big video collections. Once DVD's dropped in price everyone went nuts buying DVD players. The market was huge for many years. I was buying literally like 4 to 5 movies a week sometimes. I had no problem paying like 12 to 14 bucks for a new release or some back catalog title. In the past few years the prices have risen for disc and in return I havent bought as much. I wont gamble on trying something out...at 9 to 11 bucks....maybe...not the 19.99 they ask now for an average disc. I think for CD's to stay around a bit longer they need to come down in price.

I think almost anyone here would agree if disc came down in price they would buy more or even be more apt to check out new bands. I do think that the younger generation is more into the digital downloads than actually buying a physical product. Unfortunatly it is the age they were raised in. Imagine the generation after them will probably not really know what it is like to walk into a record shop to buy music even.

I am shocked that more and more people say they stopped buying CD's in general and jsut download....legally and illegally when many record label owners and distros post here. Imagine once the CD market goes away....going to any type of fest would lack a dealer room. The whole idea of rare tracks and out of print stuff would be gone. Once it is digital and out in the web...the rarity is lost. Everyone has their own theory on what will happen. I do think it will take many many years for CD to finally die off though.

Like Saladbar said....he went to Impulse and things were out of stock. I have been there with that place. I would go to the web site and see all this new stuff in stock. Drive all the way up there to see none of it left. After a few times I just stopped going there. I supported Metal Haven and went there for over 10 years going almost every weekend and getting at least 2 to 5 disc a week. I loved going there and discovering new bands or just the idea of being to go to a place where everyone had the same type of music in common where you could talk with others about it. We are definetly in the age of less and less stores. Christ....it is harder to get smaller titles on DVD from most stores now.

I like others will be there to the bitter end still buying CD's. While I am not one who is scared of format change....I work in broadcast / TV and see formats die out every few years. It will come but I love being able to look over at my shelf and see all my CD's all there and not hoping my computer doesnt crash and lose my whole music collection.