Change your mind on anyone yet??

[adaher]

You know more about this than I do, so your criticism is acknowledged. It could be that I'm seeing a pattern that isn't there.

I guess we'll know more in a year's time. And I will remind you personally when I attend PPXIII, featuring Stratovarius and Symphony X as the headliners.

 

[nomisofsiman]

I still haven't seen anyone contradict me in that 9 of the 12 bands could fit on any given year. Can the naysayers please address this?


You're right. The problem is that those 3 bands make up 3.5 hours of the 12.5 hours of music, and personally, despite their repeat status, I count Therion as one of the oddballs, making 5 out of 12.5 hours. Plus, even though I do love some of the bands, others, despite being part of the normal formula, just aren't my bag, so for me, there just isn't much more music here than I would get at a local show. By placing oddballs into 3 of the 4 top slots, the rest of the lineup had to be nearly perfect to attract me to it, and I'm sure I'm not alone.

Perhaps I could just change the fest name to "ProgPower USA Repeat?" Or "Prog(notreally)Power USA? Or ProgPower(butonlyifyoualreadyknowthem) USA?

I think you're falling into a trap here. Has any other major festival in the world felt the need to change? Sure, they change with the trends, but PP isn't changing with the trend, it's moving against the trend. The big power bands are growing more and more popular with each new release. Yes, due to the fact it's the same power bands, PP will feature more repeats, but who is popular governs how every festival books. Avantasia headlined Wacken only a couple of years ago, and it will headline Wacken again simply because they are one of the biggest bands available to Wacken. In the 7-day sellout years, PP too booked the biggest bands, even if they were repeats. The focus has shifted since then to keeping the festival roster fresh as possible, but if new bands aren't stepping up, what can you do? Start booking bands in other metal genres? I don't think that's going to work.

The brand name is ProgPower. If that means the same bands that sell the units and tickets come every year, that's not your fault, that's the industry's fault. But if you think the headliners need to branch out into thrash, doom, and whatever the hell Therion and Arcturus are, might I suggest Atlanta Metal Festival?

I highly doubt many people went just for Kamelot and Hammerfall. Considering Hammerfall toured previously in the year and Kamelot was going to tour after Progpower, I don't think anyone really made it out because they were such great headliners.

I can only go by my tastes, and the empirical evidence: the big power bands at the top sell out. Every time. Without fail. Other headliners struggle. Which tells me a) the casual fans that are on the fence every year love the power bands and b) casual fans judge the fest mainly by the headliners. And bonus, c) of the 7 PPs that sold out, 3 had a repeat at the headline slot. Of the 4 that did not, one had a repeat band in the headline slot. I'm not saying that repeats are what the fans are looking for, just that I think you all overestimate the attraction of exclusivity and new bands and also overestimate the negative reaction to a repeat band. Especially when the repeat band is supporting a buzzworthy new release.

To item 1: Nothing wrong about the bands at the fest you not liking. It happens to the best of us, but in terms of the festival being a success, it's doing what it always does. I still don't see how Sanctuary is an oddball but to each his own.

To item 2: That's not exactly true. Some of the bands have actually decreased in popularity. I know Edguy has turned off quite a few of their fans with their last couple of releases. Blind Guardian, Hammerfall and Sonata Arctica dropped their popularity with their second to most recent releases and lost some fans then as well. For Hammerfall, from what I read was a very inconsistent US tour where the singer even mentioned that they're debating whether or not to do another one. What I think helped them with this past year's was their most recent album was pretty good, but Glenn had no way to know how fans would warm up to it when he booked them (if my timing is right in terms of negotiations). Stratovarius I'm also pretty sure has dropped some fans due to the drama and leave of Tolkki, despite some liking the new album. The only band that truly has been consistent through the years has been Kamelot. Gamma Ray and Helloween are also very consistent, but at the same time they don't really draw that well as a lot of the younger fans don't know too much about them. I'm not saying all, but the fact that I know at least one Helloween tour was cancelled is saying something.

I don't know what you're trying to say with the Avantasia comparison. Yeah, it's power metal and headlined Wacken, but Avantasia essentially is a big supergroup of all that is power metal. You can't really compare that as of course that's going to be the biggest draw of all.

As far as you thinking the brand name Progpower is misleading, I don't see how it is. As many have said, Arcturus, love 'em or hate 'em are about as progressive as you get and so are Therion for that matter. The thrash bands that have made the fest aren't really pure thrash as much as power thrash. Paradox were, Sanctuary really is and Eldritch is the perfect progpower balance. WHW as people have said are leaning more towards a power metal type of sound than their past material has been. As Glenn and others have said, if you don't like the bands due to taste that happens and you have a right to be disappointed, but to say the fest is going in a new direction is a bit of a stretch.

To item 3: I don't think you're quite getting what I'm saying. Yeah, the past headliners, which have mostly been power metal bands, have sold out the fest. However, for the most part when they have, it's been bands who were not doing a full-fledged US tour at the time. You can't really count that. What I'm saying is that bands that are repeats and/or are on a scheduled tour, it's not going to be as much of a necessity for people to see them if they can just wait a month or less to see them, or if they've seen them before on their previous tour for that matter. I'm gonna have to agree to disagree with you on the exclusivity of this. I know I'm not alone on that sentiment.

As for Therion though. They are a draw. Honestly, when I saw them in Chicago they really didn't have any less people than most of the power bands that come through with the exception of maybe Kamelot. The reason they are no longer doing the US tour thing is because their set in general costs much more money than the average band. They have a lot of band members you have to keep in mind as well as stage set up. Plus, they weren't always booked in the best of places. Lastly, as many have said this will most likely be the final Therion US show. You are seriously underestimating their draw power. I personally don't find them to be that out of place in this fest as the longer their career has gone, the more and more they're talked about in power metal circles. This is especially true after Gothic Kabbalah. Now, them not being your cup of tea, that's fine and dandy. They are not everyone's cup of tea but you can say that about a lot of bands over the years but they are headline material in my book.

 

[adaher]

I still don't see how Sanctuary is an oddball but to each his own.

More thrashy and peaked before a lot of PP goers were born.

To item 2: That's not exactly true. Some of the bands have actually decreased in popularity. I know Edguy has turned off quite a few of their fans with their last couple of releases

You might be right, I don't follow sales figures, I rely more on buzz and availability. I couldn't buy a Hammerfall album in 2000 in any local store, now I can get them in all the local stores, so I assume they are much more popular. Plus I notice how extensive the tours get.

However, I do think I'm on firm ground that almost any band Glenn books as a repeat is more popular now than when they were last booked. Which means a bigger fanbase.

I don't know what you're trying to say with the Avantasia comparison. Yeah, it's power metal and headlined Wacken, but Avantasia essentially is a big supergroup of all that is power metal. You can't really compare that as of course that's going to be the biggest draw of all.

What I was trying to say there, is that the Wacken promoters don't think, "ah, we already had Avantasia, if we book them again the festival won't be fresh." They think, "Avantasia's still huge, book them again!"

As Glenn and others have said, if you don't like the bands due to taste that happens and you have a right to be disappointed, but to say the fest is going in a new direction is a bit of a stretch.

I think you guys might be trying to have it both ways. On one hand, the fest has to change direction to appeal to a new crowd, but on the other hand it isn't changing direction, so why are you complaining? There is certainly a lot of the tried and true formula in PP, but it's taking a back seat to bands that would have been very unlikely to be considered 7 years ago.

What I'm saying is that bands that are repeats and/or are on a scheduled tour, it's not going to be as much of a necessity for people to see them if they can just wait a month or less to see them, or if they've seen them before on their previous tour for that matter.

The reason this isn't a factor, IMO, is that a) the bands don't hit many markets. They certainly don't hit mine, and it's not like I live in the boonies. I live in South Florida. We've had exactly two tours come to us in the last ten years that are PP alums: Blind Guardian and Sonata Arctica. So for me, and probably a large portion of the PP fanbase, if they haven't played PP, we ain't seen 'em.

The other factor is the quality of the festival compared to a local show. You just can't compare seeing a band like Sonata in the Culture Room to seeing them at Center Stage.

They are not everyone's cup of tea but you can say that about a lot of bands over the years but they are headline material in my book.

I'd say they deserve to headline based on their reception at PPVI and the fact they had only one more slot to move up. But I think a big power band would have bracketed them nicely and made the whole roster look stronger. The presence of a band from the 80s at the top forces Therion to carry the festival in terms of ticket sales, and I don't think it's going to happen.

 

[ICEDEARTHFAN]

To item 1: Nothing wrong about the bands at the fest you not liking. It happens to the best of us, but in terms of the festival being a success, it's doing what it always does. I still don't see how Sanctuary is an oddball but to each his own.

To item 2: That's not exactly true. Some of the bands have actually decreased in popularity. I know Edguy has turned off quite a few of their fans with their last couple of releases. Blind Guardian, Hammerfall and Sonata Arctica dropped their popularity with their second to most recent releases and lost some fans then as well. For Hammerfall, from what I read was a very inconsistent US tour where the singer even mentioned that they're debating whether or not to do another one. What I think helped them with this past year's was their most recent album was pretty good, but Glenn had no way to know how fans would warm up to it when he booked them (if my timing is right in terms of negotiations). Stratovarius I'm also pretty sure has dropped some fans due to the drama and leave of Tolkki, despite some liking the new album. The only band that truly has been consistent through the years has been Kamelot. Gamma Ray and Helloween are also very consistent, but at the same time they don't really draw that well as a lot of the younger fans don't know too much about them. I'm not saying all, but the fact that I know at least one Helloween tour was cancelled is saying something.

I don't know what you're trying to say with the Avantasia comparison. Yeah, it's power metal and headlined Wacken, but Avantasia essentially is a big supergroup of all that is power metal. You can't really compare that as of course that's going to be the biggest draw of all.

As far as you thinking the brand name Progpower is misleading, I don't see how it is. As many have said, Arcturus, love 'em or hate 'em are about as progressive as you get and so are Therion for that matter. The thrash bands that have made the fest aren't really pure thrash as much as power thrash. Paradox were, Sanctuary really is and Eldritch is the perfect progpower balance. WHW as people have said are leaning more towards a power metal type of sound than their past material has been. As Glenn and others have said, if you don't like the bands due to taste that happens and you have a right to be disappointed, but to say the fest is going in a new direction is a bit of a stretch.

To item 3: I don't think you're quite getting what I'm saying. Yeah, the past headliners, which have mostly been power metal bands, have sold out the fest. However, for the most part when they have, it's been bands who were not doing a full-fledged US tour at the time. You can't really count that. What I'm saying is that bands that are repeats and/or are on a scheduled tour, it's not going to be as much of a necessity for people to see them if they can just wait a month or less to see them, or if they've seen them before on their previous tour for that matter. I'm gonna have to agree to disagree with you on the exclusivity of this. I know I'm not alone on that sentiment.

As for Therion though. They are a draw. Honestly, when I saw them in Chicago they really didn't have any less people than most of the power bands that come through with the exception of maybe Kamelot. The reason they are no longer doing the US tour thing is because their set in general costs much more money than the average band. They have a lot of band members you have to keep in mind as well as stage set up. Plus, they weren't always booked in the best of places. Lastly, as many have said this will most likely be the final Therion US show. You are seriously underestimating their draw power. I personally don't find them to be that out of place in this fest as the longer their career has gone, the more and more they're talked about in power metal circles. This is especially true after Gothic Kabbalah. Now, them not being your cup of tea, that's fine and dandy. They are not everyone's cup of tea but you can say that about a lot of bands over the years but they are headline material in my book.

Right on brother.Specifically your point about Therion.To me Therion is just like Amorphis.I knew nothing by Amorphis until they were announced for Progpower IX.I started with the first album and moved forward.They went from deathy vocals to melodic vocals.When they played the lead singer even said "Now we are gonna play some older songs that are death metal".They had a very nice set IMO.I think Therion may be even better

 

[nomisofsiman]

I still don't see how Sanctuary is an oddball but to each his own.

More thrashy and peaked before a lot of PP goers were born.

To item 2: That's not exactly true. Some of the bands have actually decreased in popularity. I know Edguy has turned off quite a few of their fans with their last couple of releases

You might be right, I don't follow sales figures, I rely more on buzz and availability. I couldn't buy a Hammerfall album in 2000 in any local store, now I can get them in all the local stores, so I assume they are much more popular. Plus I notice how extensive the tours get.

However, I do think I'm on firm ground that almost any band Glenn books as a repeat is more popular now than when they were last booked. Which means a bigger fanbase.

I don't know what you're trying to say with the Avantasia comparison. Yeah, it's power metal and headlined Wacken, but Avantasia essentially is a big supergroup of all that is power metal. You can't really compare that as of course that's going to be the biggest draw of all.

What I was trying to say there, is that the Wacken promoters don't think, "ah, we already had Avantasia, if we book them again the festival won't be fresh." They think, "Avantasia's still huge, book them again!"

As Glenn and others have said, if you don't like the bands due to taste that happens and you have a right to be disappointed, but to say the fest is going in a new direction is a bit of a stretch.

I think you guys might be trying to have it both ways. On one hand, the fest has to change direction to appeal to a new crowd, but on the other hand it isn't changing direction, so why are you complaining? There is certainly a lot of the tried and true formula in PP, but it's taking a back seat to bands that would have been very unlikely to be considered 7 years ago.

What I'm saying is that bands that are repeats and/or are on a scheduled tour, it's not going to be as much of a necessity for people to see them if they can just wait a month or less to see them, or if they've seen them before on their previous tour for that matter.

The reason this isn't a factor, IMO, is that a) the bands don't hit many markets. They certainly don't hit mine, and it's not like I live in the boonies. I live in South Florida. We've had exactly two tours come to us in the last ten years that are PP alums: Blind Guardian and Sonata Arctica. So for me, and probably a large portion of the PP fanbase, if they haven't played PP, we ain't seen 'em.

The other factor is the quality of the festival compared to a local show. You just can't compare seeing a band like Sonata in the Culture Room to seeing them at Center Stage.

They are not everyone's cup of tea but you can say that about a lot of bands over the years but they are headline material in my book.

I'd say they deserve to headline based on their reception at PPVI and the fact they had only one more slot to move up. But I think a big power band would have bracketed them nicely and made the whole roster look stronger. The presence of a band from the 80s at the top forces Therion to carry the festival in terms of ticket sales, and I don't think it's going to happen.

As for Sanctuary, I do agree with you. I think it's awesome they're playing, I'm just not sold on them being a headliner yet. I may change this opinion once their new cd comes out. It's hard to measure their popularity, since I'm guessing a lot of Nevermore fans are a fan of Sanctuary but I really don't know here.

In terms of previously at Progpower and now, I see your point. I just think in the last 2-3 years a lot of the bands have been waning. I just find it dangerous to keep having the same headliners as there aren't a lot of top tier power bands at the moment. New blood needs to come into play.

Gotcha on the Avantasia thing. I do think Wacken is a whole other beast though, plus there being two new albums helps too.

I don't know if both are mutually exclusive. My opinion of prog has always been pushing boundaries and being different, which is what a lot of these bands are. I love Dream Theater, but I'm not necessarily a huge fan of a lot of the Dream Theater-esque bands.

Ah. I'm starting to understand where you're coming from then, since you are in South Florida. I guess being in Chicago I'm very spoiled in terms of tours coming through here, and I will agree Florida is a major area for Progpower people. It still needs to appeal to the rest of the country though.

 

[TwizstedJesus]

Here goes another year....

I'm still trying to wade through the minefield of cd's from the entire weekend. 51 cds is gonna take me until next year to listen to and form any valid opinions, so I started with next years lineup...
Creations End - initial impression, not bad, but not good enough to make me want to sit through the entire disc...yet
Voyager- very proggy, can't get into the vocals, no balls...I'm trying
Eldritch - have a handful of old discs from them...never dug them before, will have to listen a few times to formulate updated opinion
Mob Rules - newest disc is very strong. I'm liking this choice
Arcturus - meh
Sanctuary - well crush my balls with a hammer! One of my all time faves, Into The Mirror Black is one of the top 10 discs, all time!
Haken - Interesting musically, the lyrical content sucks
Red Circuit - Not even remotely. Vendor room break here
While Heaven Wept - my initial excitement didn't last. Ok band, but another that doesn't thrill me yet.
Labyrinth - "...Heaven Denied II"...what a brilliant comeback! Excited!
Dream Evil - Not really my bag, the new disc is surprisingly good! Went back and spun a few older cds, average at best, but the new one breeds excitement!
Therion - The only reason that I've missed a progpower since #4...Ive always hated this band! DL'ed the new one because they are headlining...again...still not impressed.

Sanctuary sold it for me... 4 bands that I want to see, 3 bands that I'll sit through, the others are wait/see approach

 

[Purveyor Of Evil]

I don't need to change my mind about any band because I give all bands a chance. THERION, SANCTUARY, MOB RULES, ELDRITCH(especially Neighbourhell and Blackenday), DREAM EVIL, and LABYRINTH are my faves of next year. RED CIRCUIT will have no trouble joining this group. But, I will check all of the others out as I purchased a shitload from Kenny and Glenn. Three ARCTURUS CD's and the DVD and I bought WHILE HEAVEN WEPT because I dig a lot of doom metal, too. As you can all tell by my favorites, though, I'm power metal inclined. Not really that much of a prog fan at all. Still, I give every band a chance. ILLUSION SUITE impressed me enough this year that after their set I went and bought their CD and t-shirt. That said, I love next year's lineup severely! My favorite since PP's III and VI.

 

[adaher]

I gotta be careful, because I keep on drifting into armchair promoter territory where I'm more likely to end up sounding like a fool. Not that I've ever been afraid to be a fool.

But suffice to say, I don't like 3 out of the 4 headliners(not never heard of, just don't like), and when I don't like PP, it doesn't sell out. So I think I may be representative of the average PP fan. Of course, the wildcard is that Glenn is shooting for a new audience, so maybe the new audience is bigger.

 

[5150]

I guess it comes down to taste in music. I have limited patience for growlies or doom metal. And I lot of European power metal bores me (i.e. Dream Evil)

I can think of several bands of better quality (if not sales) than many of your choices for PPXII. A few are repeats but many have never played the States or very rarely. Such as Cloudscape, Darkwater, Masterplan (or Jorn), Arena (if they tour again), Cornerstone, Cryptic Vision (under-rated prog Florida band), Shadow Gallery (now that they are playing a few shows), Tomorrow's Eve, When The Empire Falls, Section A, Vanden Plas, Any Jeff Scott Soto project, Andra Matos, Everon, Silent Memorial, Threshold, Presto Ballet, or Van Canto. Granted not all or these are metal but neither was DSO or Pink Cream 69.

 

[Harvester]

Cloudscape, Darkwater, Cornerstone, Cyrptic Vision, When the Empire Falls, Everon, Silent Memorial, Tomorrow's Eve, Presto Ballet....

Do you honestly believe that these bands have any more draw than Haken, Creation's End, Voyager, and Red Circuit? All four fit into the exact type of style you just listed. I am totally perplexed.


Masterplan, Matos- Matos did not have the impact that I would have hoped when I previously confirmed him. In fact, it was my worst year since PP II. I'd like to think it was the economy, but I cannot say that completely. As for Masterplan, I do want them one day. All I can tell you is that you have to remember that there are some things such as a budget and logistics that have to be worked out. People tend to think I can simply book anyone I want at times.

Van Canto..uh no. Never will happen. Being the promoter has it's privledges.

Soto- Solid. Tell TSO to stop taking up his commitments.

Threshold- Twice already..and they haven't even released a new disc since their last performance.

As you say, personal taste is the one thing I simply cannot combat. Based on your description and want list, it's a rather slippery slope for you. My gut tells me that the festival cannot survive on staying that strict in scope and repeating headliners year in, year out since there are no new ones coming along.

Only time will tell....

 

[zekeyou]

Sold on Voyager. Wrote them off initially, then just worked my way through the songs in the Voyager thread and immediately ordered 2 albums.

 

[miel]

.. and when I don't like PP, it doesn't sell out.

Too big for ones britches??

~Jen

 

[adaher]

Van Canto..uh no. Never will happen. Being the promoter has it's privledges.


Wahhhhh!!!!!! I want Van Canto!

Too big for ones britches??

Just the facts, ma'am. Let's see if the pattern holds for this one. It's held up pretty reliably since PP5. I'm to Progpower what Missouri is to Presidential elections.

There's no arrogance involved in claiming bellwether status. I don't "decide" whether PP sells out or not, it just so happens that I'm very close in preferences to the median on-the-fence ticketbuyer. And like any trend, that can change if the makeup of the PP audience changes.

 

[VenomGA]

Masterplan- As for Masterplan, I do want them one day. All I can tell you is that you have to remember that there are some things such as a budget and logistics that have to be worked out. People tend to think I can simply book anyone I want at times.
Soto- Solid. Tell TSO to stop taking up his commitments.

Damn I would freaking LOVE it if Masterplan was booked and I know Donna would do the same for Jeff Scott Soto...I hope you can make them happen one day

 

[hoodaman]

Van Canto..uh no. Never will happen. Being the promoter has it's privledges.

seeing you post this makes me almost uncontrollably happy.

 

[Harvester]

I'm to Progpower what Missouri is to Presidential elections.

And Missouri voted McCain in 2008....

 

[adaher]

DOH!!!!

 

[VenomGA]

And Missouri voted McCain in 2008....

OUCH!!!!

 

[nomisofsiman]

There's no arrogance involved in claiming bellwether status. I don't "decide" whether PP sells out or not, it just so happens that I'm very close in preferences to the median on-the-fence ticketbuyer. And like any trend, that can change if the makeup of the PP audience changes.

Did you seriously just say that? Wow. Just wow. Speaking for the whole Progpower community, huh? That's pretty bold.

seeing you post this makes me almost uncontrollably happy.

I concur.

 

[5150]

Glenn, as you have discovered, with this lineup and future obscure lineups, you will have to promote not only the festival but also the bands. When the vast majority of the audience says "Who?" to most of your choices, then your job is going to be twice as hard.

Based on what I've heard so far, I'd say Voyager is a strong contender for me. But Haken and Arcturus are beyond bizarre and not my taste. I think I'd need some of the drugs these guys are taking to appreciate their "music". While Dream Evil is dull and extremely cheesey.