Some cool tunes from 2010

[Diabolik]

I agree that the scene has grown to more of a hang out and to be seen than actually going to see the bands play. In the past few years I have seen more and more shows where by the time the headliner comes on....a nice majority are in the back talking and stuff or texting. It seems the live show is less and less about the bands than a reason to text others saying you are at a show. The internet is a blessing and a curse in that way.

 

[Pelata]

I agree that the scene has grown to more of a hang out and to be seen than actually going to see the bands play. In the past few years I have seen more and more shows where by the time the headliner comes on....a nice majority are in the back talking and stuff or texting. It seems the live show is less and less about the bands than a reason to text others saying you are at a show. The internet is a blessing and a curse in that way.

A buddy of mine made a "prediction" of sorts a few years ago that new music will simply become a free tool for artists to promote their shows. This seems to tie into that a little bit.

Now, I don't see that 100% happening, but this trend of going to the shows as a social function seems to reflect a tiny part of that.

I think the internet has made music a little more disposable...it used to be a long journey from garage to record deal, and many bands never made it there. Now, there's a band on every street corner with GarageBand or Pro-Tools putting out their own albums on their own labels after writing their first 10 songs...it's flooded.

 

[skyrefuge]

Might be missing something here but illegally downloading and backing up ones CD collections are not the same thing.

Not really sure what this has to do with my post, or what you're even talking about, but yeah, they aren't the same thing. We tangented off from the "illegal downloading" discussion into a "dangers of electronic storage for music" discussion, based on a question about how to recover lost electronic files.

I have been working since Dec. to rip all my CDs to a hard drive (a major task it turns out, but all of those are my CDs.

I totally agree that ripping a CD collection is a major task, and that was my point: since it's a major task to make a backup of a CD collection, it rarely gets done, while backing up (legally purchased) downloaded music is an almost trivial task.

If the argument comes up that I bought the CD but it burned up or was stolen whatever so I should be able to go and download it well that is wrong too. If your car is totaled it doesn't entitle one to go to the lot and get a new car.

Wow, I'd bet that even most people on the industry side wouldn't take that hard of a line. That almost puts the industry in a position to encourage fire/theft, because then it means more money for them. Any financial troubles hurting the music industry are most definitely NOT because of people "illegally" downloading music they owned that was destroyed/stolen, so coming down on those few traumatized victims would be the height of PR idiocy.

Item #1 of the mp3-debate FAQ is that you can't compare electronically-transmitted music to cars, because music can be duplicated with no cost to anyone. Cars cannot. The question is, what did I pay for when I spent $12 for a shiny piece of plastic? The plastic itself, or a license to listen to the music stored on that plastic? I like to think of it as a license, though the record companies would surely disagree. Because if it's a license, then I can recover it any time I need to. In fact, some download vendors allow you to re-download tracks that you've paid for from their servers, so that's a licensing structure in place already.

Say Amy buys a 100 CDs, rips them, and backs them up to previously-mentioned mozy.com. Bob just buys 100 CDs. A raging fire burns down the apartment building they both live in. Amy can go to mozy.com to recover her collection, and Bob can go to evil-evil-torrntz.nu to recover his collection. Yeah, I know Amy should be rewarded for her foresight in backing up her collection, but from the perspective music producers, there is really no difference between Bob and Amy's behavior, so it would just seem a bit unfair for them to come down on Bob with a lawsuit, while Amy's action is totally cool.

Neil

 

[skyrefuge]

I'm always going to feel "wrong" about digital media, and backing up your music on a website, or another hard-drive, while it should be done I'm sure 75 % of peeps do not have back-ups of their music collection!

Agreed, but that's just because they're dumb. Not because it's difficult or expensive to do.

Do you have secondary copies of all of your discs stored somewhere other than the originals in case of a fire? I didn't think so.

Well, yeah, I do. I have my CDs, and then I have the data contained on those CDs stored on at least two hard drives. To me, the music is the important thing, so if the booklets and cases burned, I wouldn't be too sad and would have no desire to recover them. I stopped buying CDs 5 or 6 years ago, so the physical part really has no importance to me.

The chance of your house being burglarized or burned down is 1 in a million compared to a hard drive crashing.

Agreed, but that doesn't mean it's not a sane argument. You almost surely pay for homeowner's/renter's insurance that protects you in the case of similar 1 in a million chances, but I don't think you're insane. Even though the chances of needing to use that insurance are quite low, the cost of the insurance is also quite low, and the consequences of *not* having insurance have the potential to be extremely high, so that's why it makes sense to most people to pay for it.

So what I'm saying is that the cost of mp3-backup "insurance" is very low (cost of a hard drive and 10 seconds of your time) when compared to the cost of CD-backup "insurance" (cost of a hard drive and months of your time). That easy availability of "mp3 insurance" means more people will/can/should take advantage of it, thus making mp3s more recoverable than CDs in the face of catastrophe.

Neil

 

[J. Golden]

Not really sure what this has to do with my post,
Neil

[erhaps my quick scanning of your post caused me to misunderstand where you were going with it.

 

[J. Golden]

and if i can paraphrase your statement when you traded your good copy for my water damaged copy you said something to the effect of. "yeah man, i listened to that World Trade CD again and it still sucks."

gotcha. haha.

Really? I listen to it about that time and it wasn't bad. I do remember saying at the time that Walk on Fire wasn't all that.

 

[skyrefuge]

I won't name any names, but there are a lot of people on this forum and others I read who definitely seem more interested in the collecting aspect of the metal scene than the actual music itself.

Fixed.

Not that there's anything wrong with collector mentality, but it's hilariously ironic to see someone coming down on ThoseDamnKidsTheseDays for *their* supposed non-musical interests, by touting his own non-musical interests!

If anything, I'd say that the mp3-downloading kid is purer than the CD-collector, because for him, it *IS* only about the music, not about filling his living room, showing off to his friends, or feeding his shopping addiction.

And even ignoring all of that, really? Were there not people in the past who were into music scenes for the social aspects? This is a new thing? And, do you not see the kids today who sing every word to every song at their favorite band's concerts?

I know for me growing up, it was the album covers that drew me in to SO SO many bands, and hunting for albums was my entire life.

Yup, and when my great-grandfather was growing up, working in the fields was his entire life. We've come a long way since then, and are generally much better off. Finding new music by album-cover was a ridiculously inefficient and error-prone methodology! These days, you can actually read descriptions of any new music, and even *listen* to it to get an idea what it sounds like. I understand the nostalgia, but in terms of connecting you with "the music itself", it sucked, and it would be horrible to go back to that!

Neil

 

[J. Golden]

I won't name any names, but there are a lot of people on this forum and others I read who definitely seem more interested in the social aspect of the metal scene than the actual music itself. I guess this isn't so bad, since these fans purchase tickets to shows which supports.

well all music based sub-cultures are like this. :Look st the hippie jam band people, not all own every Phish CD ever or have a 100 = bootleg collection of live Keller Williams. The goth scene is the same way, actually think it is the best example because it is so fashion oriented. It often seems that that sub culture really pay no attention to music or at least buy it. They certainly seem like more of a social club. What is ironic is experiencing it first hand I fif not see to many "sociable" people. HAHA
But back to point; metal is a culture now it is more than just the music. Still I do disagree with those who are as I said band parasites.

 

[Diabolik]

Say Amy buys a 100 CDs, rips them, and backs them up to previously-mentioned mozy.com. Bob just buys 100 CDs. A raging fire burns down the apartment building they both live in. Amy can go to mozy.com to recover her collection, and Bob can go to evil-evil-torrntz.nu to recover his collection. Yeah, I know Amy should be rewarded for her foresight in backing up her collection, but from the perspective music producers, there is really no difference between Bob and Amy's behavior, so it would just seem a bit unfair for them to come down on Bob with a lawsuit, while Amy's action is totally cool.

Neil

what are you planning for me!!!!!

 

[skyrefuge]

It often seems that that sub culture really pay no attention to music or at least buy it. They certainly seem like more of a social club.

And...you guys realize that you're writing this in a thread that went six pages before anyone said a single word about THE MUSIC that was in the first post?

There are some goths and hippies reading this and lolling their asses off at you guys if they have not yet drowned in the richness of the irony!

Neil

 

[TribunalRecords]

If anything, I'd say that the mp3-downloading kid is purer than the CD-collector, because for him, it *IS* only about the music, not about filling his living room, showing off to his friends, or feeding his shopping addiction.

That has to be a joke? right? when was the last time you hung out with one of these kids? i have entertained them for the last 4 years playing shows with them and talk to one or two daily via facebook or myspace. Their attention span isn't very long and it's always about the NEXT hot band. again, this isn't all of them, but let's not give these kids the credit that they don't deserve just yet. from my band's perspective you get the kids that know every word then you get the kids that know the words to the videos or the ones we have up for free online. then if we play a deep cut sometimes they are lost and don't what to do until the breakdown hits and then of course they know what to do then.

But back to the topic of collecting. i can go down into my man cave and pull out a CD and tell you a personal story about the record i hold in my hands. where i bought, who told me about them first, etc. not how i clicked on a PURCHASE button on iTunes. i have a cd collection because they are a part of my life and are far more valuable to me to just go to a store and sell them off. even if i haven't listen to one in a decade i cannot get rid of them. that is just me.

like for instance every time i pick up one of my water damaged CDs (a lucky survivor of my apartment fire) i kind of cringe, but it reminds me where i have come from since that terrible night.

again, i have a collection because music is my life. hence my owning my record label for 10+ years, being a buyer at a local (now closed independent record store) for 15 years. having my own band for 7 years and touring the last 4 years with them.

i consider myself VERY different from the average music fan out there, but it's who i am and it's a little hard to change my programming now. hahaha.

 

[J. Golden]

There are some goths and hippies reading this and lolling their asses off at you guys if they have not yet drowned in the richness of the irony!

Neil

I don't follow you there. What I said or at least was thinking can certainly be backed up of you have spent time in this sub-cultures or around them, I have. Actually put a far amount of studding into it. My curiosity with the hip hop culture lead me into looking into the comparisons.

 

[J. Golden]

Fixed.

If anything, I'd say that the mp3-downloading kid is purer than the CD-collector, because for him, it *IS* only about the music, not about filling his living room, showing off to his friends, or feeding his shopping addiction.

Neil

WOW! that theory can be ripped to shreds in so many ways.
Dude I know people that have so much crap in their IPODs that they have no idea who it is they are listening to most of the time.
Every kid I know that is in their early to mid 20s has Journey on their IPOD but it is always that same song they hear on the radio all the time and the one Family Guy based a joke on or whatever. To most of them it is background noise pure and simple.
Jeez it is like comparing movies to the novel.

 

[nomisofsiman]

I am going to throw something out on the table.
It seems like it's more of the older guys here (myself included) who consider their physical formats (tapes, CDs, vinyl, etc) to be part of a "collection" and not just a format for the tunes.

I know speaking for myself, as much as I love my IPOD, there are MANY bands where I will ALWAYS have to own the physical copy of the disc, because in addition to the tunes, I need it for my collection of the band (main bands for me would be Maiden, Motorhead, Helloween, Trouble, etc).

Anyhow, while the internet has been amazing (no doubt about it) for getting music to the masses (regardless of legally or illegally) do you think it has resulted in today's new breed of fans becoming more casual about the bands they like?

I won't name any names, but there are a lot of people on this forum and others I read who definitely seem more interested in the social aspect of the metal scene than the actual music itself. I guess this isn't so bad, since these fans purchase tickets to shows which supports.

For me personally, I spend a lot more money a year on CDs and downloads than I do on tickets, since each year I go to less and less shows. (just becomes harder as kids get older, etc).

So what are your thoughts on this?
I know for me growing up, it was the album covers that drew me in to SO SO many bands, and hunting for albums was my entire life. I was indeed a vinyl junkie, so bad that about 10 years ago, I had to go cold turkey!! (Though collecting CDs can be just as bad with all the damn special pressings, imports, etc).

Congratulations Jason! You just extended the life of this thread even longer. Seriously though, you bring up some good points. I would say you probably are right that the collector usually is on the older side. I realize me being 26 and being one is extremely rare, but I also would say collectors are more common on this forum and the genre of music we listen to than people who listen to more mainstream stuff.

I would agree more people are casual today than in the past about music. A lot of people, they just want songs and hit singles, whereas in the past people would buy the entire album more often. People today basically just want some good tunes to put into their ipod shuffle. Not everyone, but I would say a high percentage of those who listen to music do this. I still prefer listening to full albums.

No offense to anyone on this forum, but the social aspect of metal has never intrigued me. I mean if I run into people that have a similar interest in this music and can talk to and/or go to shows with, cool. But, people who go to shows just for social interaction and to interact with bands I just find lame. While sometimes it's cool to meet musicians of bands I like, I could care less one way or another. The music has always been what's done it for me. If I don't like a band or just think a band is okay, there's not a chance in hell I'm going to a show.

Fixed.

Not that there's anything wrong with collector mentality, but it's hilariously ironic to see someone coming down on ThoseDamnKidsTheseDays for *their* supposed non-musical interests, by touting his own non-musical interests!

If anything, I'd say that the mp3-downloading kid is purer than the CD-collector, because for him, it *IS* only about the music, not about filling his living room, showing off to his friends, or feeding his shopping addiction.

While yes, you might be right on some downloaders being more into the music since it is just the music they're getting, I would have to disagree. Like I said in reply to Jason's post, a lot of people are just going after individual hit songs instead of listening to the full albums. They want it more to add to their shuffle and background music than anything. Not all, but I would say downloading has definitely shown how many casual music fans there are.

 

[skyrefuge]

from my band's perspective you get the kids that know every word then you get the kids that know the words to the videos or the ones we have up for free online.

Sorry, I should have been more specific. *These* are the theoretical kids I was talking about, kids who *do* care about the music, not just any random mp3-downloading kid (and I don't know the words for ANY bands I go to see, so even ones who only know the words to the free songs count in my book). I was saying that between a music-loving kid who chooses to buy his music from iTunes and a music-loving kid who chooses to be a collector of the physical, I give the slight music-lover edge to the mp3-kid, because for him, it's *all* about the music, he doesn't need the collecting part to sweeten the deal.

then if we play a deep cut sometimes they are lost and don't what to do until the breakdown hits and then of course they know what to do then.

And these are the kids that you're the most grateful for, right? The ones who aren't die-hard fans, but pay their money and check you out anyway?

I'm pretty sure that casual fans have existed in all genres of music for all time. It's this idea that casual fans are some sort of new concept, or genre-specific, that I'm objecting to.

But back to the topic of collecting. i can go down into my man cave and pull out a CD and tell you a personal story about the record i hold in my hands. where i bought, who told me about them first, etc. not how i clicked on a PURCHASE button on iTunes.

That's great, it's the same for me. But in no way does that make us "better" fans of music. All the shopping and collecting and packaging has nothing to do with connecting to the music. Are stamp-collectors lovers of the written word contained on the letters sent with those stamps? Are collectors of porcelain frogs experts on frog ecology? No, they're just dorks with weird obsessions.

Your parents wrote letters to their friends with pen and paper or a typewriter instead of emailing, or sat in the kitchen and called long-distance on a telephone they had to stick their finger in to dial instead of using a cell phone while driving home from work. Does that mean they were better friends to their friends than you are to yours? Heck no. The mediums can change, it's the content flowing through those mediums that matters.

Neil

 

[skyrefuge]

I don't follow you there. What I said or at least was thinking can certainly be backed up of you have spent time in this sub-cultures or around them, I have.

I'm saying that you've completely forgotten to look at your *own* subculture, and more, at your own participation in this thread. This entire thread is people spending their time as part of a social group, completely ignoring the actual music. Surely there's a thread on a goth forum where they're linking to this thread and pointing out how, unlike themselves, metal fans don't actually care about the music!

And there's nothing wrong with valuing social aspects along with or above the music. It's just silly to be denigrating other people/genres for sins that are universal.

Dude I know people that have so much crap in their IPODs that they have no idea who it is they are listening to most of the time.

Yes, obviously there are casual fans of music. In fact, I'd say they're the vast majority of population. Dedicated music fans are really quite rare. And I'm saying THAT'S HOW IT'S ALWAYS BEEN. The only thing iPods and mp3s have changed is that those people now listen to radio less than they used to, because the casual music fan was never a big buyer of CDs.

Neil

 

[skyrefuge]

People today basically just want some good tunes to put into their ipod shuffle.

And yesterday, didn't those people basically just want some good tunes to hear on the radio, or to put on a mix tape to put in their car? What data sources are you using to determine that peoples' desires have changed, not just their media formats?

No offense to anyone on this forum, but the social aspect of metal has never intrigued me.

You guys are killing me here! You know you've made 1394 posts on a metal forum, right?! And yes, I know the music *is* the most important thing to you, and that you mean something slightly different by the "social aspect", but anyone looking at you would say the social aspect is very important to you.

Neil

 

[nomisofsiman]

And yesterday, didn't those people basically just want some good tunes to hear on the radio, or to put on a mix tape to put in their car? What data sources are you using to determine that peoples' desires have changed, not just their media formats?



You guys are killing me here! You know you've made 1394 posts on a metal forum, right?! And yes, I know the music *is* the most important thing to you, and that you mean something slightly different by the "social aspect", but anyone looking at you would say the social aspect is very important to you.

Neil

To the first response. Of course. I never said it was the wrong thing to do. People definitely used to listen to radio. Some people are just more casual listeners than others and nowadays, like tracks to add to their ipod. What I meant was that a lot more people are buying single tracks for their ipod nowadays opposed to back when, when people would buy full albums even if they only liked a song or two or even a single for that matter. That's all I meant. I think you're reading a little too much into things here.

Second response. Again, you're reading too much into what I said. I'm on this forum to find out about new bands and yes, to have some conversation about metal amongst people that appreciate it. However, posting on a forum is a completely different thing than some people who go to metal shows to be around people, some of which try to feel special by associating themselves with musicians. That's more of what I meant in terms of what I don't do.

 

[J. Golden]

Your parents wrote letters to their friends with pen and paper or a typewriter instead of emailing, or sat in the kitchen and called long-distance on a telephone they had to stick their finger in to dial instead of using a cell phone while driving home from work. Does that mean they were better friends to their friends than you are to yours? Heck no. The mediums can change, it's the content flowing through those mediums that matters.

Neil

I had an English teacher in college I would love to run this one by.

 

[J. Golden]

I'm saying that you've completely forgotten to look at your *own* subculture, and more, at your own participation in this thread. This entire thread is people spending their time as part of a social group, completely ignoring the actual music. Surely there's a thread on a goth forum where they're linking to this thread and pointing out how, unlike themselves, metal fans don't actually care about the music!

And there's nothing wrong with valuing social aspects along with or above the music. It's just silly to be denigrating other people/genres for sins that are universal.


Neil

Don't believe I was denigrating anyone nor did I say it does not exist in all sub-cultures (bare in mind musical based).
Um, perhaps there should be a paper written comparing them I know from my experience around all the mentioned the observations are quite interesting.