Change your mind on anyone yet??

[Yippee38]

No.

 

[Harvester]

I'd say I am still not happy with the lineup ... unlike many who post only happy thoughts on this board. But I will take the time to explore the artists and listen to their material. Glenn's recommendations are worth at least a listen.

That's all I can ask. You may still think the bands you have just heard suck. Nothing wrong with that at all. Also, I don't mind people posting unhappy thoughts at all. I have had people complain about things since the very first one and will have them until the very last one.

I personally think this change in tactic will be risky ... trying to pull in mostly younger and newer fans. But in the end, it is Glenn's festival and his own skin is in the game. So the ticket sales will do the talking.

I agree that is my skin. Risky? That is where I disagree. I have set the bar so high that the only way my show is judged a success is if it a sell-out. Name any other festival in the past that has that stigma. If I succeed, what will your thoughts be? Was it luck? Or was it that I actually knew what I was doing? If I fail, then I'll be the first one to stand up and say that I was wrong. If I don't, then what will you say? I would venture nothing different because the roster is still not to your liking as opposed to a logical business decision to keep the festival going after 10 successful years.

I will say that if I rely on the older PP crowd as you state, the festival will end within 2-3 years max. I've seen the ticket audits to verify that. The repeat customer is no longer repeating and this is not just in the past 2 years. It has been an ongoing trend for five years now. The well eventually dries up.

To me this is a great opportunity for other festivals to step-forward and fill a niche for the older PP audience. Like the Triton Cruise before it was cancelled or the first two BarFest shows.

I would absolutely welcome that. I'd love to go and attend as just a fan. However, I bet my house that it will not happen. The sales will simply not happen. Triton did not meet expectations even prior to the cancellation. Barfest did not the first year when it catered to the "older PP crowd" and they had the entire West Coast to pull from. Chicago Powerfest saw the same thing before they went in a different direction a few years ago. I'll happily provide band/booking agent contact information and some free consultation to anyone that wants to take a shot at it. The festival was built on the "niche," but it would die on that as well.

For me, the appeal of PP has been a chance to see some bands only available at this festival. They were bands I was familar with but rarely if ever toured the States. And then the few unknowns bands on the lineup were an opportunity to explore new bands. But PPXI and now PPXII are mostly composed of unknown bands with limited appeal to me. I suspect I will like some of them and others will be a beer or food run ... which is becoming more frequent every year.

"I was familiar with..." I think you hit the nail on the head. I have 8 exclusives next year. It's no different in the past. I dare say that I have booked the majority of the "popular" prog and power bands over the past ten years. Sure, there are a handful left, but there is a reason they haven't played already. Where are the new bands that *everyone* is raving about like they were 6-7 years ago. What's left is for me to bring back bands that have already played. If you think the old fans will come back for them like they did in the past, then I give up debating this. You win.

I also think that also calling last year's roster unfamiliar only further exemplifies the disconnect you have with bands outside your comfort zone. Nothing wrong with that. The show still sold-out with two touring headliners so something was right. As for next year, I just have to ask why is it that you are not familiar with a lot of these "unknown" bands as 9 of the 12 bands fit the formula for any given year.

Yet having said that, rarely have I enjoyed the big headliners. My favorites have been the middle bands such as Balance Of Power, Threshold, Vandan Plas, Evergrey, Symphony X, Ark, Angel Dust, Superior, Edguy, CIIC, Pagan's Mind, Redemption, Dreamscape, Conception, Circus Maximus, Jorn, JOP, and Seventh Wonder.

Let's ignore the headliners as you said for this year and look below it. What is it about bands like Labyrinth, Dream Evil, Mob Rules, Red Circuit, and Voyager that makes this year so much more different than in the past?

Yet I also recognize that part of Glenn's success has meant more metal bands are touring the States in at least a limited capacity and I live in an area they frequent. So there are more opportunities for me to see the bands I like ... outside of the PP festival.

Absolutely. You are referring to established, older bands that have already played the festival and are now able to draw crowds locally on their own. It makes no sense to travel to Atlanta when you see them in your backyard.

I understand your frustration. However, I believe the festival has to diversify in order to introduce another generation of fans. I believe I have already started doing that successfully. For every person that is turned off by Arcturus, there are 3-4 that are stoked that have never attended the festival. You have to get outside the normal prog/power circles to witness that.

So the next year, I now have 5 people to potentially return instead of 1.

Creation's End....heavy, melodic prog with awesome vocals.
Haken..quirky prog rock with a bit of metal..
Voyager...melodic prog metal..keys..melodic vocals..the works.
Labyrinth...old school
Eldritch...old school
Red Circut...Vanden Plas meets Threshold
Mob Rules...Barfest veteran!
Dream Evil....sell a fuck load of records here in the States..power veterans..
Sanctuary...hell, they are one of the original prog/power bands.
Therion...Returnee that packed the place last time!!!

While Heaven Wept...proggy doom
Arcturus...true progressive metal...like it or not.


Did I miss out on what makes next year so different than in the past???

 

[Pellaz]

Glenn, you yourself set your own bar pretty high for PP....I think at one point you posted that you regarded anything less than a sellout as missing the mark.

...And yet.... How many other now-dead metal fests in this country would have LOVED to have cleared a decent profit after break-even, let alone sell out? You've proven that you've had a successful business model for years....I don't think any other metal fest in this country can make that claim now, except maybe Maryland DeathFest. (I'm not counting ProgDay or NEARFest, both of which are still running. They have their own niche...and it's mostly older folks, too.)

Long story short, a large part of PPUSA's success comes down to your uncanny business acumen and your absolute honesty...as shown in the post above. There are many things that you can't tell us (for "operational secrecy" reasons ), but when you do give out details, which is more often than probably anyone else in "the biz" does, we all know we can take it to the bank. Done. Finito.


Anyway, back to the 2011 roster....

Just finally got to listen to Red Circuit and Creation's End and both sound fine. Not so much as a "changing of the mind" on them as a confirmation of what I was already expecting.

Also listened to Sideshow Symphonies, which I must have owned at some time since CDex said "oh ho, I've seen this disc before!" when I tossed it in for ripping (oops, I therefore have an extra copy here somewhere), and really enjoyed Vortex's vocals. Of course, he was always the kicker on several Dimmu songs that are among my faves ("The Insight and the Catharsis," "Reptile"), so hearing his voice with Arcturus kinda makes me a little sad at this point.

 

[Up&Away]

I think what has happened is the fest has lost it's purist base. With the event leaning toward black/death/doom/etc., the purist fans have been slowly falling off the grid. Bands are doing their best to blur the lines with aforementioned type bands implementing progressive or power elements in order to tap into those segments. The fans of those type bands are doing their best to push them and to have them more readily accepted by calling them progressive metal or power metal. Of course, this is an attempt to downplay what those bands are really based in. But again, the purist will tend to totally reject this and sometimes even find it disgusting. It is what it is.

 

[Akumu]

The only bands I actually owned stuff by at the time of the announcement were Therion (and only their Live in Miskolc DVD), Haken, and Dream Evil. :zombie: I have a lot of research to do. I've been meaning to buy Lemuria/Sirius B for a while, so I did that at the Insider Sale; so far I really enjoy it, particularly Kali Yuga 1 & 2. Haken will be interesting - it'd be cool if they brought their little horn section with them, as was shown in their thread a while back. I can't make it through Dream Evil's discs all the way, but they should be good, fist-pumping fun live.

As for the others so far...

Arcturus: I picked up La Masquerade Infernale at the Insider Sale. It's weird as hell, which probably means I'll love them live.
Sanctuary: I like Nevermore, but after a spin of Into the Mirror Black I'm not quite sure if I'm sold on them yet... I might've been put off by how dated it sounded. I'll have to give this some more listens (though upon repeated listens, I'm liking "Future Tense" a lot more).
Red Circuit: Listened to a few songs on YouTube. They weren't bad, but I think they might be the type who comes across better live.
Voyager: Watched two of their music videos, listening to the music player on their website now. Spacey prog with a cool vocalist - I'm liking this a lot!
While Heaven Wept: Have been recommended to me a few times since last year. Will definitely get around the checking out at some point.
Mob Rules & Eldritch: I don't think they're for me, but I'll try again some other time.

 

[adaher]

That's all I can ask. You may still think the bands you have just heard suck.

I wouldn't say that any of the bands suck. I just wouldn't go to some PPs for the same reason I wouldn't go to some Ozzfests or some movies. I doubt anyone thinks that these bands suck.

I have set the bar so high that the only way my show is judged a success is if it a sell-out. Name any other festival in the past that has that stigma.

Well, there's absolute success and there's relative success. The point I've been making is that if one type of PP falls short of a sellout, and another type of PP more to my liking sells out 100% of the time, then it would make more sense to keep the formula that works.

I will say that if I rely on the older PP crowd as you state, the festival will end within 2-3 years max. I've seen the ticket audits to verify that. The repeat customer is no longer repeating and this is not just in the past 2 years. It has been an ongoing trend for five years now. The well eventually dries up.


What makes you think the new crowd has substantially different tastes than the old crowd? There were a lot of new people last year to see the same formula that made PP successful. I'm also confused by your change of direction given that your strategy for PPX was to book the big power bands and really sell the power metal all over the roster, and it seems to have worked like a charm. All of those past PP headliners are bigger now than they were then and gaining new fans with every new release. Where are new fans for a band that hasn't been active in 20 years going to come from? I expect that Sanctuary will put about as many butts in seats as Accept did, for the same reasons.

Let's ignore the headliners as you said for this year and look below it. What is it about bands like Labyrinth, Dream Evil, Mob Rules, Red Circuit, and Voyager that makes this year so much more different than in the past?


You're absolutely right about that, you took care to fill up most of the roster with good power and prog bands. Dream Evil and Labyrinth I've been waiting for for a long time. But I really need to see at least one of my favorite bands get a full 90 minute set. For me, the bands lower on the roster are like appetizers to get me hyped for the headliners.

 

[adaher]

And one thing that's been bugging me: last year in the "how it all came together" post, you said you needed to really sell the power and get the big power metal headliners. And it worked!

I'd also add that I think some of the older fans are leaving because the fest has been toying with a different direction for a few years now, alternating between what we're used to and a darker, weirder vibe. I watch the roster every year to determine if I want to go, but I'd imagine some people, once they've been disappointed a couple of times, stop paying attention.

 

[Diamond45]

Did I miss out on what makes next year so different than in the past???

• Because most of the bands on this year's roster aren't well known by PP fans. Most of the "name" bands you've already had. Dream Evil and Mob Rules pretty much fill out the mental checklist I had of power metal band I wanted to see. The only known prog band that I still want to come is Vanden Plas, but we know the deal with them....
  
  
• Other people have touched upon it - you're expanding beyond the orginal vision for the fest and introducing other genres such as doom and thrash. I could see why returning fans see could see this as alienation of what this fest was all about - power and prog metal. Blackguard and Oceans of Sadness are two prime examples of this year's fest. I personally didn't care for either one, but they did do a good job. But if you're trying to attract younger fans, I can see why you're doing it, and it probably makes sense.

People have go come here next year with an open mind. You're trying to introduce new bands and some people just want more of the same. I commend you for exploring our horizons a bit, IMHO but be careful you don't stray too far from what this fest is about - power and prog. Too much doom and thrash may be a turnoff.

 

[Harvester]

IMHO but be careful you don't stray too far from what this fest is about - power and prog. Too much doom and thrash may be a turnoff.

I still haven't seen anyone contradict me in that 9 of the 12 bands could fit on any given year. Can the naysayers please address this?


Plus, add in Therion that is a repeat and you are down to two bands that are bringing something "new" to the festival. And in all honesty..a band like Arcturus is more progressive than anything on the roster.

Perhaps I could just change the fest name to "ProgPower USA Repeat?" Or "Prog(notreally)Power USA? Or ProgPower(butonlyifyoualreadyknowthem) USA?

 

[Cheiron]

For what it's worth Glenn, this is the best roster for my tastes (yeah now you are worried!).

 

[AngraRULES]

I still haven't seen anyone contradict me in that 9 of the 12 bands could fit on any given year. Can the naysayers please address this?

They haven't done it because it's impossible. They have no argument to that.

Plus, add in Therion that is a repeat and you are down to two bands that are bringing something "new" to the festival. And in all honesty..a band like Arcturus is more progressive than anything on the roster.

Which goes to show that a lot of the people in the forum (especially the naysayers) have a very distorted vision of what's progressive metal. I get the feeling that for some of them, unless the band has a high-pitched powerful singer, some instrumental keyboard-guitar wankery and infectious hooks and melodies, it's not progressive metal. In other words, it needs to sound like Dream Theater. I wonder if these people in particular are ever going to break out of their little VandenPlas-Cloudscape-CircusMaximus-PagansMind bubble and realize that progressive metal goes way beyond this. It's one thing to like the style, it's another to say that those bands are the true prog metal bands.

Perhaps I could just change the fest name to "ProgPower USA Repeat?" Or "Prog(notreally)Power USA? Or ProgPower(butonlyifyoualreadyknowthem) USA?

 

[LarryD]

As one of those "Progsnobs" who looks forward to the prog bands each and every year ( can I say Seventh Wonder again ? ), I can honestly say that this is one of the best lineups I've ever seen.......

This is one of those shows where we will have to figure out some way to eat as I can't imagine leaving the venue for any of those bands, although I'm not too fond of Dream Evil, but hell I'd just stay there for them.

There is something in this lineup for everyone (as there usually is), and bringing Arcturus is just plain over the top. Lots of these bands go back a long way for us, and its great to finally get to see some of them.....

Fantastic.

 

[kamelotica]

Therion with Snowy worth the ticket alone!!

 

[Diamond45]

Perhaps I could just change the fest name to "ProgPower USA Repeat?" Or "Prog(notreally)Power USA? Or ProgPower(butonlyifyoualreadyknowthem) USA?

Hahaha! Some people would actually agree with you on this statement. Like I said, I'm glad you're trying to expand our horizons a bit. When I first thought about prog metal at this fest.... snooze.... but bands like Voyager actually are quite listenable. I'm very much looking forward to seeing them.

Not every prog band is like Seventh Wonder (though I like them very much). I'm fully aware of that. But I wonder by the posts of some of the regulars on this forum?

 

[Creeps]

• Because most of the bands on this year's roster aren't well known by PP fans. Most of the "name" bands you've already had. Dream Evil and Mob Rules pretty much fill out the mental checklist I had of power metal band I wanted to see. The only known prog band that I still want to come is Vanden Plas, but we know the deal with them....
• Other people have touched upon it - you're expanding beyond the orginal vision for the fest and introducing other genres such as doom and thrash. I could see why returning fans see could see this as alienation of what this fest was all about - power and prog metal. Blackguard and Oceans of Sadness are two prime examples of this year's fest. I personally didn't care for either one, but they did do a good job. But if you're trying to attract younger fans, I can see why you're doing it, and it probably makes sense.

People have go come here next year with an open mind. You're trying to introduce new bands and some people just want more of the same. I commend you for exploring our horizons a bit, IMHO but be careful you don't stray too far from what this fest is about - power and prog. Too much doom and thrash may be a turnoff.

This is probably going to be one of the best "How did I do / What do you think of" threads so far. Most of them are just "this and that sucks..you suck". This time around there seems to be some actual thought process going on in the posts.

Vanden Plas already played PP. I hope you saw them that year, they were good and I'm not a die hard fan of theirs or prog metal. My tastes lean towards the power and thrash side along with a heavy dose of hard rock.

Blackguard? Let's do the math. Kamelot + Leaves Eyes + Blackguard = current US tour (before illness). Kamelot was a return favorite and Leaves Eyes has a fan base which means Blackguard was a bonus. Odds are they would have been at the festival drinking anyhow, so why not book them and let them play? They've already proven to have won a lot of fans by playing the festival. They readily admit they're pleased because they know a lot of folks don't care for growly vocals. It comes down to.. if you don't like the opener.. show up late, go shop, go eat and drink.. pick your poison.

To address other issues. Like Glenn said the naysayers have only shouted from the stands and have yet to step up to the plate on certain responses. Gold Badge holders are REPEAT customers returning to this fest every year. When a fan has to give up their badges (4 & 5 in my case) due to life kicking us when we're down, or they lose interest or take your pick of any other reason that means he needs to make sure he does his job to sell those badges and tickets that are no longer a guarantee sale every year.

If all he did was make sure Everygrey and Symphony X played every year I'd be bored to tears and would question his motives LOL. Half the fun of this forum and this fest (for me) is being introduced to all sorts of new bands or older bands I never listened to before. Sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't.

 

[nomisofsiman]

What makes you think the new crowd has substantially different tastes than the old crowd? There were a lot of new people last year to see the same formula that made PP successful. I'm also confused by your change of direction given that your strategy for PPX was to book the big power bands and really sell the power metal all over the roster, and it seems to have worked like a charm. All of those past PP headliners are bigger now than they were then and gaining new fans with every new release. Where are new fans for a band that hasn't been active in 20 years going to come from? I expect that Sanctuary will put about as many butts in seats as Accept did, for the same reasons.

You're absolutely right about that, you took care to fill up most of the roster with good power and prog bands. Dream Evil and Labyrinth I've been waiting for for a long time. But I really need to see at least one of my favorite bands get a full 90 minute set. For me, the bands lower on the roster are like appetizers to get me hyped for the headliners.

I think what this comes down to is that you just don't like these headliners. Maybe they're a little different, but Sanctuary essentially is power metal in my book. Yeah, they're a thrash band, but with the powerful vocals and speedy riffs I don't see how they're much different than past power metal bands.

As far as Therion goes, they've been to Progpower before and got a great response, so how do they not fit in the spectrum.

As you said, the other bands all fit, so I don't see the problem. Lastly, I will contend that this fest usually doesn't sell based on the headliner. The main selling point of this fest for me has usually been the low to mid-tier bands. People want to go to this fest because you get to see bands you would never get to see otherwise. Not just that, but unlike Ozzfest these low to mid bands have good set times at a minimum of 45 minutes to an hour, unlike the aforementioned fest that usually has them play for 20-30 minutes.

I highly doubt many people went just for Kamelot and Hammerfall. Considering Hammerfall toured previously in the year and Kamelot was going to tour after Progpower, I don't think anyone really made it out because they were such great headliners. I think what's happened is that people don't want to go if they can just see it in their hometown. They want to see exclusive headliners, which I think Glenn is understanding now. While having a touring headliner helps cut costs, it doesn't help bring people in. Kamelot is the perfect example here. The fest was in danger of not selling out for a while, and then miraculously when Khan wasn't going to show up and it was going to be Michael amongst other singers, it sold out pretty quickly because it was going to be an exclusive thing. I don't mean to step on Glenn's toes here, but I'm not so sure this fest would've sold out had it just been the usual Kamelot show.

• Because most of the bands on this year's roster aren't well known by PP fans. Most of the "name" bands you've already had. Dream Evil and Mob Rules pretty much fill out the mental checklist I had of power metal band I wanted to see. The only known prog band that I still want to come is Vanden Plas, but we know the deal with them....
  

• 
  
  That's a rather bold statement. I know you can't judge this forum alone, but considering every single one of the bands were guessed except for one in Creation's End which is a new band without a cd contradicts that statement. People who are fans of Progpower know most of these bands. For instance, most of these bands have been at the merch tables for years. I think you're just assuming that you haven't heard of many of them that everyone hasn't. By no means am I trying to attack you here btw. I just wouldn't assume this because the majority of these bands fit the progpower mold and I've heard all of them mentioned before. The only ones honestly I haven't heard of for instance are Red Circuit. As for Arcturus, everyone knew Glenn would pick an oddball and in terms of the previous oddball bands, this is probably the most well known oddball.
  
  
  

  Which goes to show that a lot of the people in the forum (especially the naysayers) have a very distorted vision of what's progressive metal. I get the feeling that for some of them, unless the band has a high-pitched powerful singer, some instrumental keyboard-guitar wankery and infectious hooks and melodies, it's not progressive metal. In other words, it needs to sound like Dream Theater. I wonder if these people in particular are ever going to break out of their little VandenPlas-Cloudscape-CircusMaximus-PagansMind bubble and realize that progressive metal goes way beyond this. It's one thing to like the style, it's another to say that those bands are the true prog metal bands.

  
  Yep. I've been saying this for quite a while. Some people who are fans of so-called "progressive" metal, you'd think they'd be more open-minded.

 

[AngraRULES]

Note to all "so-called Prog fans" who are bitching about the lineup:

If you have checked out HAKEN and still think this lineup doesn't offer true progressive rock/metal music, you should reconsider your mental status and seek help.

 

[nomisofsiman]

Note to all "so-called Prog fans" who are bitching about the lineup:

If you have checked out HAKEN and still think this lineup doesn't offer true progressive rock/metal music, you should reconsider your mental status and seek help.

Creation's End too.

 

[adaher]

I still haven't seen anyone contradict me in that 9 of the 12 bands could fit on any given year. Can the naysayers please address this?


You're right. The problem is that those 3 bands make up 3.5 hours of the 12.5 hours of music, and personally, despite their repeat status, I count Therion as one of the oddballs, making 5 out of 12.5 hours. Plus, even though I do love some of the bands, others, despite being part of the normal formula, just aren't my bag, so for me, there just isn't much more music here than I would get at a local show. By placing oddballs into 3 of the 4 top slots, the rest of the lineup had to be nearly perfect to attract me to it, and I'm sure I'm not alone.

Perhaps I could just change the fest name to "ProgPower USA Repeat?" Or "Prog(notreally)Power USA? Or ProgPower(butonlyifyoualreadyknowthem) USA?

I think you're falling into a trap here. Has any other major festival in the world felt the need to change? Sure, they change with the trends, but PP isn't changing with the trend, it's moving against the trend. The big power bands are growing more and more popular with each new release. Yes, due to the fact it's the same power bands, PP will feature more repeats, but who is popular governs how every festival books. Avantasia headlined Wacken only a couple of years ago, and it will headline Wacken again simply because they are one of the biggest bands available to Wacken. In the 7-day sellout years, PP too booked the biggest bands, even if they were repeats. The focus has shifted since then to keeping the festival roster fresh as possible, but if new bands aren't stepping up, what can you do? Start booking bands in other metal genres? I don't think that's going to work.

The brand name is ProgPower. If that means the same bands that sell the units and tickets come every year, that's not your fault, that's the industry's fault. But if you think the headliners need to branch out into thrash, doom, and whatever the hell Therion and Arcturus are, might I suggest Atlanta Metal Festival?

I highly doubt many people went just for Kamelot and Hammerfall. Considering Hammerfall toured previously in the year and Kamelot was going to tour after Progpower, I don't think anyone really made it out because they were such great headliners.

I can only go by my tastes, and the empirical evidence: the big power bands at the top sell out. Every time. Without fail. Other headliners struggle. Which tells me a) the casual fans that are on the fence every year love the power bands and b) casual fans judge the fest mainly by the headliners. And bonus, c) of the 7 PPs that sold out, 3 had a repeat at the headline slot. Of the 4 that did not, one had a repeat band in the headline slot. I'm not saying that repeats are what the fans are looking for, just that I think you all overestimate the attraction of exclusivity and new bands and also overestimate the negative reaction to a repeat band. Especially when the repeat band is supporting a buzzworthy new release.

 

[Harvester]

You're right. The problem is that those 3 bands make up 3.5 hours of the 12.5 hours of music, and personally, despite their repeat status, I count Therion as one of the oddballs, making 5 out of 12.5 hours. Plus, even though I do love some of the bands, others, despite being part of the normal formula, just aren't my bag, so for me, there just isn't much more music here than I would get at a local show. By placing oddballs into 3 of the 4 top slots, the rest of the lineup had to be nearly perfect to attract me to it, and I'm sure I'm not alone.
.

I honestly don't think you and I need to debate any "empirical" evidence or anything else based on that simple paragraph. You simply don't like the roster based on taste. That's cool.

I can't wait to sell this thing out next year and mention it to you ever so slightly...