Why does the media ignore power metal in the States?

[Harvester]

Sorry G, but it is utter disrespectful of people to attack a guy everytime he posts just because he apparently hasn't learned how to write nicely. Who knows, English might not even be his first language. I sure know that I often come off way "harder" than I want to, just bcs English isn't my first language.


c.

From his very first post on this forum (Lounge to be precise):

"Dude, you've been spouting about how factually competent you are and you don't know the difference between socialism and communism, NONE of you guys do it seems. Please stop posting about something you know nothing about."


I'm suppose to respect that?

No need to apologize. I think AS is an awesome poster in terms of his facts. I love to read it. I love to debate him on occassion. I love to ask him questions.

None of that changes the fact that I think he is a total asshole at times. I don't buy the Danish may be his primary language argument in terms of his style.

I hope he drops the drama queen act and comes back. I'll keep reading his posts!

 

[Claus / Intromental]

From his very first post on this forum (Lounge to be precise):

"Dude, you've been spouting about how factually competent you are and you don't know the difference between socialism and communism, NONE of you guys do it seems. Please stop posting about something you know nothing about."

I'm suppose to respect that?

No need to apologize. I think AS is an awesome poster in terms of his facts. I love to read it. I love to debate him on occassion. I love to ask him questions.

I'm not telling you to respect everything he says. There's no doubt, as I've also pointed out, that AS comes across very rude in his posts. That still doesn't make it valid that people jump on him every time he posts here.

None of that changes the fact that I think he is a total asshole at times. I don't buy the Danish may be his primary language argument in terms of his style.

Dude, you're totally ruining my "cover up" here. I always excuse myself with Danish being my primary language when I make a joke that people don't find funny, or even when my wife doesn't agree with me - it's the perfect cover up, and now you say it's not an argument here?

Seriously though, you say "a total asshole at times", and that's the distinction that most people who lash out at him doesn't seem to make - it's not ALL THE TIME he comes across like an asshole.

I hope he drops the drama queen act and comes back. I'll keep reading his posts!

Agreed.

 

[Magius]

Guys, AS was advised by other forum members to watch how he comes across in his posts. From what I can see, he's actually done a pretty good job of that. What I've noticed is folks being as reactionary to him as they would normally have been. If he's willing to tone it down, I think you guys should give him a chance.

Wise woman.

And AS - people are not going to start respecting you overnight. Give everyone else a chance to realize that you've taken into consideration Zod's (and other's) advice about the tone of your posts. I believe most people will come around.

Yes. Zod's observation that "turning the other cheek," was going to be necessary for a while was right. That said, I aslo think that AS's attention to his tone has been exemplary recently. There may be some rough spots, but one can't be expected to refurbish a personality completely. Unfortunately, turning the other cheek is more difficult in practice than theory.

As for the whole intimatcy issue with bands and popularity - I find it incredibly selfish of fans to begrudge a band popularity just because they won't be able to get close to the stage anymore, or the liklihood of meeting their favorite artist will be less. I think if you truly love what a band is doing, you should be pleased that the band is playing to bigger audiences, instead of sulking about how you can't get close to the stage anymore, or you can't meet the band easily anymore.

It's the proverbial double edged sword. I agree it's the pinnacle of hypocrisy to turn on a band one touts as soon as they achieve some small measure of mainstream success. DragonForce would be a prime example.

However, for myself, and I can't be alone, concert experiences are greatly diminished when viewed from either nosebleed or lawn seating. Paganfest I will probably always be one of my favorite concert experiences. I seriously doubt it would have made any lasting impression if viewed from Sect 303, Row J, Seat 13.

 

[Jasonic]

However, for myself, and I can't be alone, concert experiences are greatly diminished when viewed from either nosebleed or lawn seating. Paganfest I will probably always be one of my favorite concert experiences. I seriously doubt it would have made any lasting impression if viewed from Sect 303, Row J, Seat 13.

Thank you.
I know we all say we want our fav bands to be as successful as possible, but the greedy side of me will come out and say that I don't want to see HELLOWEEN in an arena.

Underground music (IE - metal, punk, hardcore, etc, etc) has its roots in the clubs. That's where the music does the talking! Intimacy to the band is what makes live underground metal special.

 

[OrbWeaver]

I got to see Iron Maiden, Heaven and Hell, and Dream Theater, all in arenas (well, DT not so much, but it was still quite a large venue) and I had pretty good seats for all of those shows. Heck, for Heaven & Hell we were in something like the 12th row in the middle. And none of these shows cost me an arm and a leg to see, considering how good the seats were.

So yeah, seeing a show in the nosebleed sections sucks, but it doesn't always work out that way. I think the only concert I went to where I was in the nosebleed seating was seeing a country act when I was 11. And the handfull of Ozzfests I attended, but then, it was cheapter to get lawn tickets, and you could still get a good spot for the second stage bands. So all in all, I wasn't disappointed.

Maybe I'm just blessed by the Concert Gods.

 

[Metal_Camden]

I always excuse myself with Danish being my primary language when I make a joke that people don't find funny, or even when my wife doesn't agree with me

HAHAHAHA

 

[mad_taffer]

Man, have I been wanting to chime in on this for awhile.

I believe it all has to do with the "death" of metal when grunge took over. Even though that occurred in the late 80's/early 90's, I believe that the stigma attached to the "hair bands" (of which I was fan) is so negative that if anyone even sees long hair bands they immediately associate them with those bands.

I blame MTV for one. I remember the first time I saw metal really getting ridiculed was on Beavis and Butthead. They were making fun of Sebastian Bach and the song "Monkey Business". Because Mike Judge hated that music, he used it as a crusade to kill the current metal scene and usher in the grunge era.

I really believe it's that simple. Once alternative took a foothold it just never let go and that negative opinion of 80's metal stuck. Don't you think it's quite telling that VHI1's worst metal songs of all time had Europe's "The Final Countdown" as the 1 worst metal song ever? Eddie Trunk hates Euro metal, that's why he doesn't mention it. Also, his VH1 show is on VH1 Classic which is another reason he claims to not mention the current European bands. I know plenty of people that do not even know Iron Maiden is still together, but loved them as teens. It's almost scary to know that. Of course regular rock and roll has also been hit. Can anyone remember a time when you could see Kiss and John Mellencamp on MTV within the same hour...diversity ruled and now it's all hip hop and rap.

For some reason metal never died in Europe though. Bands like Helloween were only shown here on Headbanger's Ball and you were lucky to see thier vids 3 times before they disappeared. So power metal is considered "cheesy" by a lot of people and I think a lot of it is owed to MTV. They branded it as such while championing it for so many years.

Say what you will about Dragonforce, they actually made power metal acceptable in America through Guitar Hero. I have to think that fans of TTFTF may have researched them and found other power metal bands as a result. Last.FM is where I found a lot of bands by creating a Dragonforce radio station. So, if not for Dragonforce I would not have found power metal...just sayin.

What is ironic is that I think the best best for bands like Edguy, Strato, etc is to get songs on Rock Band or Guitar Hero. The bad thing is that those games are starting to get old, but you cannot beat the exposure that the games provide to all audiences. And, how are you going to convince Activision or Harmonix to make a "euro metal pack"? It's great that Dream Theater was included, so why not Symphony X or Kamelot. I think that you have to have a way to get the music out there, and the games are the most viable solution right now to reach the biggest audience.

Tour all you want, but if no one has ever heard of you, then of course no one is going to show up at the concerts. And if no one has heard of you, then how are they going to find your myspace page. There is a shield in America that is blocking these bands...they have to find a way to break through. I just feel that the music games are the best way to reach the broadest audience at this point...but they are dying. Ok, so how do you erase the negative stigma of the 80's bands...that's the answer or rather the question. How do you make something that is considered cheesy into cool? When that answer is found, power metal will have a fighting chance in America.

mtaffer

 

[Creeps]

People join bands for certain reasons; to make music, to get rich & famous doing it & to get laid for doing it. Anyone who says otherwise is probably a hobbyist and has no real drive to "make it" which is a long hard road unless you're going to be the 4th revolution of music.

People who sit back and complain about their music becoming too popular will be the same people that complain that their choice band broke up after a few albums (if they're lucky).

If you are one of these people ask yourself how you would feel if people told you that they didn't want you to be tremendously successful at your job? You'd probably tell them to piss off. You need or want that job and perhaps even enjoy it and would like to keep a roof over your head and become successful in your own right. Who are these people to tell you otherwise?

It's obvious that unless you're tearing up the sales charts in some way most musicians are now juggling 2 or more projects. When these projects collide they have to make a choice. It's just like working multiple jobs. These musicians want to continue touring and sell albums and write music. If they're not in 2 + projects then they're going to be holding down part time jobs when they're not touring.

I've worked at an AOR station. I've managed bands, been a promoter (small scale), put together a small indie label for local bands, worked public access TV (behind and in front of the camera), fronted bands, played guitar, foley, editing, lighting and on and on. I say this not to toot my own horn, but for some folks who may have not done these things to understand the following statement; It is extremely hard to make a living it in the entertainment industry. To top it off, most of those things I've done in the industry I was doing it all at the same time while holding down 1-2 other jobs. I've had good times and bad times, it's all part of the game.

It's very easy to stand in the back and SAY "I could do better". It's an entirely different experience to try and put your money where your mouth is. Back in the 80s we called them posers.

 

[Magius]

Man, have I been wanting to chime in on this for awhile.

I believe it all has to do with the "death" of metal when grunge took over. Even though that occurred in the late 80's/early 90's, I believe that the stigma attached to the "hair bands" (of which I was fan) is so negative that if anyone even sees long hair bands they immediately associate them with those bands.

I blame MTV for one. I remember the first time I saw metal really getting ridiculed was on Beavis and Butthead. They were making fun of Sebastian Bach and the song "Monkey Business". Because Mike Judge hated that music, he used it as a crusade to kill the current metal scene and usher in the grunge era.

I really believe it's that simple. Once alternative took a foothold it just never let go and that negative opinion of 80's metal stuck. Don't you think it's quite telling that VHI1's worst metal songs of all time had Europe's "The Final Countdown" as the 1 worst metal song ever? Eddie Trunk hates Euro metal, that's why he doesn't mention it. Also, his VH1 show is on VH1 Classic which is another reason he claims to not mention the current European bands. I know plenty of people that do not even know Iron Maiden is still together, but loved them as teens. It's almost scary to know that. Of course regular rock and roll has also been hit. Can anyone remember a time when you could see Kiss and John Mellencamp on MTV within the same hour...diversity ruled and now it's all hip hop and rap.

For some reason metal never died in Europe though. Bands like Helloween were only shown here on Headbanger's Ball and you were lucky to see thier vids 3 times before they disappeared. So power metal is considered "cheesy" by a lot of people and I think a lot of it is owed to MTV. They branded it as such while championing it for so many years.

Say what you will about Dragonforce, they actually made power metal acceptable in America through Guitar Hero. I have to think that fans of TTFTF may have researched them and found other power metal bands as a result. Last.FM is where I found a lot of bands by creating a Dragonforce radio station. So, if not for Dragonforce I would not have found power metal...just sayin.

What is ironic is that I think the best best for bands like Edguy, Strato, etc is to get songs on Rock Band or Guitar Hero. The bad thing is that those games are starting to get old, but you cannot beat the exposure that the games provide to all audiences. And, how are you going to convince Activision or Harmonix to make a "euro metal pack"? It's great that Dream Theater was included, so why not Symphony X or Kamelot. I think that you have to have a way to get the music out there, and the games are the most viable solution right now to reach the biggest audience.

Tour all you want, but if no one has ever heard of you, then of course no one is going to show up at the concerts. And if no one has heard of you, then how are they going to find your myspace page. There is a shield in America that is blocking these bands...they have to find a way to break through. I just feel that the music games are the best way to reach the broadest audience at this point...but they are dying. Ok, so how do you erase the negative stigma of the 80's bands...that's the answer or rather the question. How do you make something that is considered cheesy into cool? When that answer is found, power metal will have a fighting chance in America.

mtaffer

That's a big part of it IMO. Metal, due to the success and really the excess of the Hair Band image, is as cliché as Disco.

 

[nomisofsiman]

No, RR would never would have offered them a contract. Or at the very least, I highly doubt it. You need to sell at least 50,000 copies or so per album for RR to even consider you. They had to license Daath to Century Media just because the first record didn't sell up to their standards. Plus, RR is clearly moving away from signing metal bands, especially with Gitter gone.

Additionally, you are the one who is wrong here. Dream Theater only did one US tour on this album so far, with no immediate plans for another one. There's a reason for that.

Second of all, when Dream Theater tours, they play to 5-10,000 people and can afford themselves with a huge comfy tourbus and probably make tens of thousands or even hundreds of thousands of dollars per gig. They started out on Warner for over a decade and subsequently moved to Roadrunner, which means that they were always given exceptional promotion by metal standards. They've gone gold with Images And Words, and they charted in the top 10 or so with the last few albums.

Symphony X was always on indie labels, even up until now, with Nuclear Blast not being nearly as powerful in the US as Warner or Roadrunner. While Symphony X is now going to enjoy more success than usual, it won't compare to Dream Theater's simply because they had the advantage of having major label backing. Even if said backing was minimal by major label standards, it still far exceeds that of the indies or "major indies" in the metal underground. In order to get to where Dream Theater is at NOW, Symphony X will have to do a ton of extra touring, which would be far too much strain on the band physically and financially. A tour like Gigantour for example, was a nice long term boost for the band's notoriety, but I doubt they would be willing to do many tours like that because there's not so much money to be made on them unless they are the headliner or co-headliner. But, I hope they prove me wrong in any case!

Not quite. While Roadrunner requires a band to sell decent, it's not to the extent you say. I don't know the numbers, but I'm pretty damn positive before they were signed to Roadrunner that Nightwish didn't sell 50k. They aren't the only ones though, they're just the prime example that comes to mind. The only Roadrunner bands that sell like that are KSE, Nickelback and Slipknot. To a lesser extent, Megadeth but after the lack of promotion on this last album and Dave bitching, I doubt they re-sign with them. But beyond that, the rest of their band lineup doesn't make that much.

As for Dream Theater not touring the US again. You're right, there is a reason for it. It's called a Transatlantic tour in development. It's not because they wouldn't sell. They would in a heartbeat, but I know Portnoy said he's planning a Transatlantic tour and he's also mentioned that the guys want to do an album every 2 years so there was no other way to do the Transatlantic thing and do an album in time if they had done another tour.

 

[nomisofsiman]

I'm going to end this post by saying that I'm sick and tired of the reactions to my posts on here and I'm not going to trouble you guys any more with my two cents. I love to debate these things, and that's why I love to post in these threads, but at the same time I'm sick and tired of hearing from people that they don't like my tone or some such because I sound like some heavy-handed authoritarian. I've been accused of making personal attacks in previous threads and calling people names when I never have (but I've been called various names, everything from "moron" to "troll" to "he must have aspergers syndrome" on this forum), so I can tell that I'm more of a nuisance on here than I am a source of insight so I'll take my leave. I didn't really have to say that and I don't want this thread to get derailed and be about me for the next 2 pages, so being that the case... I won't even be reading the next few replies, so if you have something to say to me, feel free to PM me so that this really cool thread does not get derailed.

I've been silent for long enough about your posts. You make it seem like everyone else but you is the enemy. From what I've seen over the last couple months or so is that on almost every single topic you come off rude and you always get yourself in trouble. People can have opinions and such, but I don't think you really realize how you come across. No one on here is out to get you, but you seem to take this stuff WAY too seriously and you always seem to respond to a comment no matter what, as if you HAVE to have that last word no matter what. You should really think about why it is that you get in such trouble on here. I don't see anyone else get in trouble really. Just something to think about.

 

[nomisofsiman]

What is ironic is that I think the best best for bands like Edguy, Strato, etc is to get songs on Rock Band or Guitar Hero. The bad thing is that those games are starting to get old, but you cannot beat the exposure that the games provide to all audiences. And, how are you going to convince Activision or Harmonix to make a "euro metal pack"? It's great that Dream Theater was included, so why not Symphony X or Kamelot. I think that you have to have a way to get the music out there, and the games are the most viable solution right now to reach the biggest audience.

You know, I didn't fully realize it until you just posted, but I think Guitar Hero and Rock Band has pretty much become the new radio if you really think about it. People love the games and then when they hear something rocking that they're playing on it, they'll do more research on the band.

 

[mad_taffer]

I really think the best thing would be for a few of these bands to get together (maybe on same record label) and release a Euro metal pack...but make it FREE. I know that if I see anything free on Rock Band I will download it regardless, but you can't beat free publicity. These games really have a way of introducing younger people to other styles. I just wish it wasn't so long in the tooth now. But, being a player of said games I can also say it makes the songs more memorable and this is a good thing. So, I think that it could at least expose these bands to an audience that might not otherwise ever hear them. So, how do you make it happen or convince their record companies that this is a good idea?

mtaffer

 

[Claus / Intromental]

Not quite. While Roadrunner requires a band to sell decent, it's not to the extent you say. I don't know the numbers, but I'm pretty damn positive before they were signed to Roadrunner that Nightwish didn't sell 50k.

Actually, they did. In Europe they were selling way more than 50K, and there's no doubt that Roadrunner's idea behind signing them for USA was to achieve huge numbers over here (to which they succeeded).

They aren't the only ones though, they're just the prime example that comes to mind. The only Roadrunner bands that sell like that are KSE, Nickelback and Slipknot. To a lesser extent, Megadeth but after the lack of promotion on this last album and Dave bitching, I doubt they re-sign with them. But beyond that, the rest of their band lineup doesn't make that much.

Huh? Most Roadrunner bands sell 50K or more. Otherwise, they wouldn't be on Roadrunner for long.

Porcupine Tree, Opeth, KSE, Nickelback, Trivium, Machine Head, Dream T, Megadeth, Rob Zombie, Slipknot, Devil Driver, Cradle Of Filth, Cavelera Conspiracy, Lynard Skynard etc all sell 50K+ ....

c.

 

[Jasonic]

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing about NW.
Don't they have many gold records in Finland?
I know overseas, you don't have to sell as many as here (500K) to go gold, though it seems like Sonata, NW, etc, all go gold, and I think they have to hit like 100K.

Sorry, too lazy to look it up.

 

[mad_taffer]

To make a case for this, one of the biggest things that happened this year in Rock Band was Iron Maiden's track pack. There were a lot of people that were happy and Rock Band actually stole the fire from Guitar Hero because they were going to have The Trooper in their Smash Hits package. It was considered a major blow when Harmonix got the Iron Maiden track pack first...so that tells you the industry understands how important metal is to the gaming audience.

 

[ICEDEARTHFAN]

To make a case for this, one of the biggest things that happened this year in Rock Band was Iron Maiden's track pack. There were a lot of people that were happy and Rock Band actually stole the fire from Guitar Hero because they were going to have The Trooper in their Smash Hits package. It was considered a major blow when Harmonix got the Iron Maiden track pack first...so that tells you the industry understands how important metal is to the gaming audience.

I remember when VH1 and the "Where Are They Now" series along with "Behind The Music" sparked some interest back into the 80's hair/metal scene.I was pleasantly suprised when people I work with who said I was stuck in the 80's started getting addicted to both of those series.
The 2 games you speak of are a family favorite in my home.My wife who couldn't stand metal now actually enjoys playing drums or guitar.

 

[nomisofsiman]

Actually, they did. In Europe they were selling way more than 50K, and there's no doubt that Roadrunner's idea behind signing them for USA was to achieve huge numbers over here (to which they succeeded).





c.

Ah. Didn't think about that aspect of it, though the European and US market is very different. Good to know.

 

[nomisofsiman]

I remember when VH1 and the "Where Are They Now" series along with "Behind The Music" sparked some interest back into the 80's hair/metal scene.I was pleasantly suprised when people I work with who said I was stuck in the 80's started getting addicted to both of those series.
The 2 games you speak of are a family favorite in my home.My wife who couldn't stand metal now actually enjoys playing drums or guitar.

I can see this. I think the thing is about these games and metal is quite frankly, metal songs are more fun to play.

 

[gorobschnitt]

From a UK perspective Power Metal is quite frankly struggling to exist. We have some fantastic festivals which cater for all things metal - Sonisphere, Download and Bloodstock but only Bloodstock still tries to get PM bands on the stage. A guy here put up his own cash to put on a 3 day indoor festival last September (Metalfest) which although not exclusively PM had Primal Fear, Brainstorm, Vision Devine, Powerquest, Elvenking, Pathosray, Circus Maximus, and loads more. The turnout was poor and he lost a load of money. So please have no illusions that the UK is carrrying the flag.

The only gigs that get a good turnout are in London and this year I have caught one-off shows by Hammerfall, Edguy and Kamelot that were almost sold out. This year I have also seen Firewind, Blaze Bayley and Kiuas playing in clubs to 70 - 80 people. Having said that I am getting a definate buzz for Sabaton and I'm seeing them in London this Sunday. I am hoping for a sell out, which would be about 800 people!

We have no commercial radio stations that play the music, although I give praise to Bruce Dickinson who does a 3 hour show on BBC and has had Kiuas as guests!

At the moment it seems to me that Prog Rock and Prog Metal is getting a better showing!

All this is one of the reasons I have already bought my ticket for ProgPower USA next year.

Keep the faith!