Why does the media ignore power metal in the States?

[Jasonic]

AeonicSlumber - Ummmm... you should chill out a bit.
You make a LOT of speculation.

Do you know how much per CD a major label band earns, after ALL involved get paid?
PENNIES! Literally.

Sure, Dream Theater got a lot of advertising during their major label days, but any $$$ they made was due to touring, and NOT album sales.

Secondly, in terms of what RoadRunner would and would NOT do is absurd.
How can you compare what RR would to TODAY, to what they did with DEATH?
RoadRunner is in a completely different place now, then where they were when Obituary and Suffocation were their premiere bands (no offense to those two bands, BTW). RoadRunner is very open these days to taking a chance on genres, singing both long running bands and up and comers.

Sorry, but you are coming off as a know it all, who truly does not know it all.

 

[AeonicSlumber]

AeonicSlumber - Ummmm... you should chill out a bit.
You make a LOT of speculation.

Do you know how much per CD a major label band earns, after ALL involved get paid?
PENNIES! Literally.

Where did I say that CD sales yield money for bands? For the record it's not pennies, it's more like 1-2 bucks per CD sold depending on the contract. Lately alot of bands are forming their own "companies" and signing licensing deals with labels, such as Periphery with Sumerian Records, Celtic Frost with Century Media, etc. This way, the band actually ends up making MORE than that in CD royalties. But that's neither here nor there.

Sure, Dream Theater got a lot of advertising during their major label days, but any $$$ they made was due to touring, and NOT album sales.

I never once said that they made money from sales. Please read my posts more carefully. The LABEL makes money from sales, which in turn gives the label more incentive to work with the band. A band that doesn't sell will get dropped by both the booking agent and the label, so sales are indeed vital. However, nowhere did I once say that bands make their living from them. I'm almost offended even that you interpreted my posts this way.

Secondly, in terms of what RoadRunner would and would NOT do is absurd.
How can you compare what RR would to TODAY, to what they did with DEATH?
RoadRunner is in a completely different place now, then where they were when Obituary and Suffocation were their premiere bands (no offense to those two bands, BTW). RoadRunner is very open these days to taking a chance on genres, singing both long running bands and up and comers.

Sorry, but you are coming off as a know it all, who truly does not know it all.

And you are trying to start an argument for the sake of doing so, like a little dog barking at everyone just because. Nobody said anything whatsoever about what Roadrunner did in the past and what they do today. I have no idea where you think someone even mentioned that. What I said was that today, Roadrunner will not sign a band that sells under 50,000 records per album. I know this, by the way, because I read an interview with Monte Conner regarding the stoner metal scene. They couldn't even sign The Sword for this very reason, what makes you think they'd sign Symphony X?

The exact quote:

"And yeah, 50,000 units is great for a label like Kemado, they can make money on that, but for a bigger label like Roadrunner, we wouldn’t be making money, and I don’t want to just sound like some callous record company asshole, but we are a record company and we are in business to make a profit and it’s my job to keep the commerce in mind while defending the art. We want to sign cool bands, but we also need to sign cool bands that are gonna help keep the lights on, because ultimately this is a business."


So yeah, please read more carefully next time.

Edit: I said Daath, not Death, so now I know why you're bringing up RR's past bands. So yeah, really dude... you need to read more carefully...

 

[dcowboys311]

They had to license Daath to Century Media just because the first record didn't sell up to their standards.

...not exactly.

 

[AeonicSlumber]

...not exactly.

Perhaps you know something I don't, but I don't see any other reason why a bigger label would license a CD to a smaller label. Typically in licensing deals it's the OPPOSITE, the smaller label licenses the CD to the bigger label, or a label with better distribution in a specific territory. Therefore it makes sense that the reason why RR would license the CD to CM would be due to the fact that RR did not want to lose money on the album and leave the promotional costs, and distribution costs to Century Media leaving.

 

[dcowboys311]

Perhaps you know something I don't, but I don't see any other reason why a bigger label would license a CD to a smaller label. Typically in licensing deals it's the OPPOSITE, the smaller label licenses the CD to the bigger label, or a label with better distribution in a specific territory. Therefore it makes sense that the reason why RR would license the CD to CM would be due to the fact that RR did not want to lose money on the album and leave the promotional costs, and distribution costs to Century Media leaving.

Heh, that would be the case.
You make a lot of valid arguments and obviously know a lot about the business, but like Jasonic said, you make a whole lot of speculation as well. The Daath thing is an example. Chill out!

 

[Jasonic]

So yeah, please read more carefully next time.

Eh, I read it as DEATH, my bad.

Yeah, some of the things I said in my post were not aimed to directly contradict anything you said.

Your overall tone though is that you know exactly how the business works.

Initial copies sold result in VERY little $$$ to the band, up until the point all expenses are covered. So the $1 to $3 per disc might be made once expenses are all paid back. The VERY low sales volumes we are speaking of here though do not reach that point.

I have no info on this, but I would be VERY surprised to hear that RoadRunner passed on the Sword. They tour like crazy (ala Machine Head, etc), plus have the hipster following. For goodness sakes, RR signed TAKING DAWN.

So the bottom line is that every label takes a chance with some signings and there hardly is ever any really set formula that is always followed.

Your posts read as extremely "Black and white, this IS the way it is because I say so"

Sorry, but I myself as well as MANY people I know have been involved in various music scenes for MANY MANY years. I don't give a crap about something you read in an interview.

 

[AeonicSlumber]

Eh, I read it as DEATH, my bad.

Yeah, some of the things I said in my post were not aimed to directly contradict anything you said.

Your overall tone though is that you know exactly how the business works.

While I don't know "exactly" how the business works (I'm of the belief that nobody truly does), I know a good deal. I'd rather not get into that though.

Initial copies sold result in VERY little $$$ to the band, up until the point all expenses are covered. So the $1 to $3 per disc might be made once expenses are all paid back. The VERY low sales volumes we are speaking of here though do not reach that point.

Ok and once again, nowhere have I said otherwise. Nowhere have I said that bands make $$$ from sales, yet you bring this up once again. I know FULL well how the royalty system works, BELIEVE ME. It has nothing to do with this.

I have no info on this, but I would be VERY surprised to hear that RoadRunner passed on the Sword. They tour like crazy (ala Machine Head, etc), plus have the hipster following. For goodness sakes, RR signed TAKING DAWN.

Well I just posted a quote from Monte saying why they passed on The Sword, once again, reading is your friend.

So the bottom line is that every label takes a chance with some signings and there hardly is ever any really set formula that is always followed.

Your posts read as extremely "Black and white, this IS the way it is because I say so"

It is the way it is, because that's generally how it is. I would really rather not reveal my personal experiences and such on these matters, because I don't know anyone here very well and I don't like to air out my personal life on internet forums, so I feel I can rely on much of the transparent information that's out there to back my points up. If you choose to deny it, that's fine by me dude. Either way, I never claimed to be a 'know it all' but I do claim to have knowledge. There's a difference.

Sorry, but I myself as well as MANY people I know have been involved in various music scenes for MANY MANY years. I don't give a crap about something you read in an interview.

I'll never understand why you wont give a crap, if it's a valid source that pertains to the discussion.

DcCowboys: Well I never once said that I can for certain claim that Daath's situation is what I said it is, but I can say that it's more than just speculation. I'll leave it at that, because once again; not a fan of airing out that kind of stuff in public. And I suspect it's the same with you as well.

I'm going to end this post by saying that I'm sick and tired of the reactions to my posts on here and I'm not going to trouble you guys any more with my two cents. I love to debate these things, and that's why I love to post in these threads, but at the same time I'm sick and tired of hearing from people that they don't like my tone or some such because I sound like some heavy-handed authoritarian. I've been accused of making personal attacks in previous threads and calling people names when I never have (but I've been called various names, everything from "moron" to "troll" to "he must have aspergers syndrome" on this forum), so I can tell that I'm more of a nuisance on here than I am a source of insight so I'll take my leave. I didn't really have to say that and I don't want this thread to get derailed and be about me for the next 2 pages, so being that the case... I won't even be reading the next few replies, so if you have something to say to me, feel free to PM me so that this really cool thread does not get derailed.

 

[Jasonic]

It is the way it is, because that's generally how it is. I would really rather not reveal my personal experiences and such on these matters, because I don't know anyone here very well and I don't like to air out my personal life on internet forums,

Give it a break dude.
This is the WRONG forum to pull the, "I know someone, but I can't say who!"

Guess, what? MANY of us know people in camps a lot bigger than who you may or may not know. I am not trying to undermine the things you say. YOu might truly have some insight and experience. If so, cool! Good for you.

Your delivery is what is turning people off and making you VERY uncredible.

I love debating this stuff too.
Once again though, the reason why no one is siding with you is your approach. So, if you want to go the "Black and white" approach, but not back up why you think you know it all, no one is going to listen.

 

[Claus / Intromental]

Thanks to DCCowboys and Jasonic for kicking one of the most valuable posters off the board!

I said the same thing last week, and it seemed like no one cared to listen: AeonicSlumber knows what he is saying and instead of behaving like he is a troll you have to hate, you've now gone and kicked him off.

Nice one guys!

c.

 

[Jasonic]

so I can tell that I'm more of a nuisance on here than I am a source of insight so I'll take my leave.

Seriously, don't leave.
Just pay more attention to your tone.
We all love to debate stuff here.
Sure, sometimes things get personal, but in the end no one truly dislikes anyone here or anything of the nature.

 

[OrbWeaver]

Guys, AS was advised by other forum members to watch how he comes across in his posts. From what I can see, he's actually done a pretty good job of that. What I've noticed is folks being as reactionary to him as they would normally have been. If he's willing to tone it down, I think you guys should give him a chance.

And AS - people are not going to start respecting you overnight. Give everyone else a chance to realize that you've taken into consideration Zod's (and other's) advice about the tone of your posts. I believe most people will come around.


That said, I see a LOT of good points being made in this thread. I would love to see power metal gain more popularity in the states, but at the same time, I doubt that's ever going to happen. Especially given some of the points made in the 4 pages of this thread about popularity (or lack thereof) in Europe, money, promotion, and record lables. I think most of us are just going to have to be happy with turnouts for US festivals like ProgPower. Which I am.

As for the whole intimatcy issue with bands and popularity - I find it incredibly selfish of fans to begrudge a band popularity just because they won't be able to get close to the stage anymore, or the liklihood of meeting their favorite artist will be less. I think if you truly love what a band is doing, you should be pleased that the band is playing to bigger audiences, instead of sulking about how you can't get close to the stage anymore, or you can't meet the band easily anymore.

 

[Jasonic]

Thanks to DCCowboys and Jasonic for kicking one of the most valuable posters off the board!

I said the same thing last week, and it seemed like no one cared to listen: AeonicSlumber knows what he is saying and instead of behaving like he is a troll you have to hate, you've now gone and kicked him off.

Nice one guys!

c.

Well, sorry. But when asked to support his knowledge, he replies with "I know things, but can't say, blah, blah, blah" it won't carry weight with anyone.

As I said, it's also the tone.

It reads like Stone Cold Steve Austin (IE - That's the Bottom Line, becuase AeonicSlumber says so!)

 

[dcowboys311]

Thanks to DCCowboys and Jasonic for kicking one of the most valuable posters off the board!

I said the same thing last week, and it seemed like no one cared to listen: AeonicSlumber knows what he is saying and instead of behaving like he is a troll you have to hate, you've now gone and kicked him off.

Nice one guys!

c.

Word.

Hey before you go ahead and start accusing me of "kicking him off the board" you wanna go ahead and show where I treated him like a troll, told him he was wrong on his main points, and was just a general dick?

 

[Jasonic]

I think if you truly love what a band is doing, you should be pleased that the band is playing to bigger audiences, instead of sulking about how you can't get close to the stage anymore, or you can't meet the band easily anymore.

Joan - You do realize if STRATOVARIUS played the ALLSTATE ARENA instead of the PYRAMID CLUB, you would NOT have gotten your picture taken with Timo!

 

[Claus / Intromental]

Word.

Hey before you go ahead and start accusing me of "kicking him off the board" you wanna go ahead and show where I treated him like a troll, told him he was wrong on his main points, and was just a general dick?

Snide comments like "not exactly" and "chill out" isn't being a dick?

I think you guys are way out of line in your way of responding to him and the way you always have to contradict what he says, just because you don't like the way he words his posts.

I have no idea who the heck AonicSlumber is, but I can tell you that so far he's been right on the money with 99% of the stuff he's been posting here. That counts way more in my book than being "nice to everyone" all the time.

c.

 

[Harvester]

Thanks to DCCowboys and Jasonic for kicking one of the most valuable posters off the board!

I said the same thing last week, and it seemed like no one cared to listen: AeonicSlumber knows what he is saying and instead of behaving like he is a troll you have to hate, you've now gone and kicked him off.

Nice one guys!

c.

I think Zod gave the best response already a couple of weeks ago..


Originally Posted by Claus / Intromental
No! You're not reading my post correctly.
I believe I understand what you're saying perfectly. I simply think you're putting the cart before the horse.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Claus / Intromental
I'm saying: he apparently knows what he is talking about, and people show time and time again that they don't want to listen to him and instead write everything he says off as another "trolling post". Sure, he has a weird way of communicating with others, and he is very hostile.

I understand and agree. Here's where we differ. I think it's unrealistic to expect the board, as a whole, to take that first step. You can't call someone an idiot and then reasonably expect them to read past the point where you've called them an idiot and then absorb any wisdom you offer after that point.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Claus / Intromental
But it goes 2 ways, and waaaaayyyy too many times people piss him off by jumping at his throat when he is making a valid point.

Yes, but that's the bed he's made. He set a precedent in previous threads. If he wants things to change, he's going to need to initiate that change, not the board. If he starts treating people with respect, that respect will be returned. Unfortunately, he's reached the point where he now may need to turn the cheek a few times, before things return to a level of mutual respect.

As I said, I think he's a quality poster and I appreciate his insights. I simply think he needs to do the mature thing, take a step back and rethink his approach.

Zod

 

[OrbWeaver]

Joan - You do realize if STRATOVARIUS played the ALLSTATE ARENA instead of the PYRAMID CLUB, you would NOT have gotten your picture taken with Timo!

Oh, I know. But I think they deserve to play large arenas like that. Me not getting a photo with Timo in place of their (deserved) popularity seems like a more than fair trade-off.


That said...I GOT TO TOUCH TIMO KOTIPELTO! :hotjump: *gleeeee!*

 

[Claus / Intromental]

I think Zod gave the best response already a couple of weeks ago..


Originally Posted by Claus / Intromental
No! You're not reading my post correctly.
I believe I understand what you're saying perfectly. I simply think you're putting the cart before the horse.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Claus / Intromental
I'm saying: he apparently knows what he is talking about, and people show time and time again that they don't want to listen to him and instead write everything he says off as another "trolling post". Sure, he has a weird way of communicating with others, and he is very hostile.

I understand and agree. Here's where we differ. I think it's unrealistic to expect the board, as a whole, to take that first step. You can't call someone an idiot and then reasonably expect them to read past the point where you've called them an idiot and then absorb any wisdom you offer after that point.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Claus / Intromental
But it goes 2 ways, and waaaaayyyy too many times people piss him off by jumping at his throat when he is making a valid point.

Yes, but that's the bed he's made. He set a precedent in previous threads. If he wants things to change, he's going to need to initiate that change, not the board. If he starts treating people with respect, that respect will be returned. Unfortunately, he's reached the point where he now may need to turn the cheek a few times, before things return to a level of mutual respect.

As I said, I think he's a quality poster and I appreciate his insights. I simply think he needs to do the mature thing, take a step back and rethink his approach.

Zod

I don't agree with Zod at all. It's just excuses for treating AonicSlumber like he wants to.

Sorry G, but it is utter disrespectful of people to attack a guy everytime he posts just because he apparently hasn't learned how to write nicely. Who knows, English might not even be his first language. I sure know that I often come off way "harder" than I want to, just bcs English isn't my first language.

The thing is that if people get away with yelling at others instead of LISTENING to what they have to say, especially when someone who knows stuff has something to say, we're gonna end up with a society of retards who won't ever learn.

c.

 

[dcowboys311]

Snide comments like "not exactly" and "chill out" isn't being a dick?

I think you guys are way out of line in your way of responding to him and the way you always have to contradict what he says, just because you don't like the way he words his posts.

I have no idea who the heck AonicSlumber is, but I can tell you that so far he's been right on the money with 99% of the stuff he's been posting here. That counts way more in my book than being "nice to everyone" all the time.

c.

LMAO, are you serious?
Telling somebody "not exactly" is being a dick?
Next time, I'll just straight up say "No, you don't know what you're talking about," "no, you're wrong," or "that's not how it works!" That's probably not being a dick.

I'm assuming you're still singling me out in your next paragraph since you did in the previous post, but if not, disregard this. I've never gotten butthurt about his tone, etc. In fact, I thought it was funny. I enjoyed reading the dude's posts because they were both informative AND entertaining. Given some posts I've made in the past, I'm the last person who should be all "CHANGE YOUR TONE YOUNG MAN." And I haven't.


Sucks that the guy wants to leave, but oh well.

 

[Jasonic]

My position still stands.
I love to debate this stuff.
Though you can't make statements like, "Oh, I know how it really goes, but I can't tell you why I know" and expect folks to say, "Yes, you MUST be right!"

It's all about approach.

I replied right back to him, I don't want him to leave.
I like a good debate.