How many people here are into the extreme forms of metal

[rhavin2112]

One of the things I really like about Glenn is that he gives all bands consideration. Last year we had Spiral Architect and Opeth is unvited this year(hope they come). It seems to me that the tolerance for death and black vocals is getting better. Last year at the festival allot of the people I talked to did'nt care much for the extreme progressive bands that deserve the exposure too. Bands like Enslaved, Emperor, Bal Sagoth, My Dying Bride. and of course...Opeth. Could you imagine the diversity of a festival that had these bands alongside bands like Vanden Plas and Blind Guardian? It would make for an unusual crowd!

 

[PumpkinFlyFree]

Im into a little bit.

That would definately be interesting to get a variety of bands from all different styles there though.

 

[zinescene]

I would hardly call Spiral Architect or Opeth extreme by any stretch of the imagination. Both are generally regarded as "Progressive" give the technical nature of their music. Now to get Dimmu Borgir or Witchery or Dark Funeral at a show like this would be a stretch even though their great bands. To me, I would consider that extreme. Those are bands I like and would like to see at a concert but I don't think they would have a place at a show like this unless glenn wanted to add a third day, have one for progressive, one for power metal bands and one for extreme metal. Maybe something to consider for future shows?

JOhn

 

[rhavin2112]

Originally posted by zinescene
I would hardly call Spiral Architect or Opeth extreme by any stretch of the imagination. Both are generally regarded as "Progressive" give the technical nature of their music. Now to get Dimmu Borgir or Witchery or Dark Funeral at a show like this would be a stretch even though their great bands. To me, I would consider that extreme. Those are bands I like and would like to see at a concert but I don't think they would have a place at a show like this unless glenn wanted to add a third day, have one for progressive, one for power metal bands and one for extreme metal. Maybe something to consider for future shows?

JOhn

I agree, I guess in the grand scheme of Prog I would say these bands are more extreme than say BG or Kamelot. Could you Imagine Emperor(RIP) onsatge at the earthlink? Hell, if Spiral Acrcitect blew some minds the last time around Imagine what Ishahn and co. would do.

 

[chazzyf]

Hey! when did ProgPower become an extreme metal festival? (sorry extreeme does not mean 'progressive' (in the true sense), it usually means tuneless crap played at breakneck speed, with added grunting and screeching)

I thought that the whole point of it was PROG + POWER. Extreeme metal is underground too, but there are already festivals, magazines which exist to promote that kind of shit.

If you want to see Bal-Sagoth, Enslaved, Dimmu etc, then start your festival. Opeth has more in common with Prog bands than most of that stuff and when Akerfeldt actually sings I like 'em, so I don't have a problem with them being there - even though I'm unlikely to watch all of their set.

Dimmu are just fucking boring and their attitude is too aloof for them to fit in well with the friendly back-stage thing. Is there room for a whole band's worth of assholes? I suspect that it wouldn't work.

Should it happen, then I'd vote with my feet. No point travelling to Atlanta to see I whole load of bands I could see here in London.

 

[General Zod]

It depends on what you consider extreme. To me, Opeth is Prog Metal with extreme vocals. I do like a few bands that are often referred to as Swedish Death Metal, ala Soilwork, At the Gates, Shadows Fall, In Flames, etc.

GZ

 

[Jim LotFP]

Originally posted by chazzyf
Hey! when did ProgPower become an extreme metal festival? (sorry extreeme does not mean 'progressive' (in the true sense), it usually means tuneless crap played at breakneck speed, with added grunting and screeching)

Depends on the band. I agree Dimmu wouldn't belong on the ProgPower stage, but you made an example of Enslaved... sorry, have you heard Monumension? Yeah, they blast, but I'd say Enslaved are more 'progressive', in every sense of the word, than any of the bands that played last year or are booked or invited this year. You just don't hear bands combining black metal, Floyd, and King Crimson in a soup like that...

Do you listen to what's going on when you listen to some of these bands? Emperor might be crossing the line as far as being a ProgPower band but I fail to see how Prometheus is any less a progressive album than Spiral Architect's unless you're keeping track of the number of time changes. How do you measure? If a band averages too many beats per minute, they're not prog enough? The wrong % of clean vs growl and they're gone? The extreme scene's gone more melodic, and I'm thinking the next shift will be melodic bands bringing in the heavy duty shit to augment their sound anyway, so the next few years are going to be interesting.

One thing that is VITAL to this festival's longterm future is to be open to the progressive acts that don't fit the 'standard' of what people would think progressive is TODAY... painting 'prog' into a corner is awfully unprogressive, wouldn't you say? Who are going to be the headliners of ProgPower 2005? 2007? 2010? I hope they don't sound like Kamelot or Symphony X, or worse yet ARE Kamelot or Symphony X or the whole scene's in a dead end. Glenn's thinking longterm with this, I think. And not to have these bands dominate this fest, but I think the truly progressive, more extreme bands really do deserve a slot or two on this fest.

Originally posted by chazzyf
Extreeme metal is underground too, but there are already festivals, magazines which exist to promote that kind of shit.

I guess the question here is, is ProgPower marking a scene and defining "us vs them", or is ProgPower simply going to bring the BEST of the progressive and/or power scene?




/rant off, tear down the walls!

 

[rhavin2112]

Originally posted by chazzyf
Hey! when did ProgPower become an extreme metal festival? (sorry extreeme does not mean 'progressive' (in the true sense), it usually means tuneless crap played at breakneck speed, with added grunting and screeching)

I thought that the whole point of it was PROG + POWER. Extreeme metal is underground too, but there are already festivals, magazines which exist to promote that kind of shit.

If you want to see Bal-Sagoth, Enslaved, Dimmu etc, then start your festival. Opeth has more in common with Prog bands than most of that stuff and when Akerfeldt actually sings I like 'em, so I don't have a problem with them being there - even though I'm unlikely to watch all of their set.

Dimmu are just fucking boring and their attitude is too aloof for them to fit in well with the friendly back-stage thing. Is there room for a whole band's worth of assholes? I suspect that it wouldn't work.


Should it happen, then I'd vote with my feet. No point travelling to Atlanta to see I whole load of bands I could see here in London.

Its attitudes like this that is causing the metal scene to stagnate. If you don't like these bands fine, but don't deny their place at any festival. I will also add that bands like Ensalved and Opeth are far more progressive that anything on the power metal scene(with the exception of BG and a few others) have to offer. Progressive music by definition is music that pushes the boudaries and challenges what are notions of music really are. Dream Theater, Symphony X, Kamelot?? What makes them progressive. What are they doing that is new original or unique? Granted they are talented but playing a thousand notes a minute does not make a band progressive. I would be proud to see Emperor or Enslaved alongside BG or Pain of Salvation. Diversity and an open mind is the only two things that will keep metal evolving.


Bottom line, if you don't like them don't listen to them. If they ever play ProgPower, get you CD shopping done during the set.

 

[chazzyf]

Its attitudes like this that is causing the metal scene to stagnate. If you don't like these bands fine, but don't deny their place at any festival.

Well personally I would deny their presence at a thing like ProgPower. ProgPower was set up as an outlet for the sorts of bands that weren't getting an outlet at other festivals because those events were getting clogged up with exactly the same kind of shit bands as you want to drag into this.

Progressive music by definition is music that pushes the boudaries and challenges what are notions of music really are. Dream Theater, Symphony X, Kamelot?? What makes them progressive. What are they doing that is new original or unique?

Yawnnnnnnnnnnn ZzZzZzZz I just knew that this old cherry was gonna get trotted out in favour of including any old shit that is a bit different. Just because its pushing perceived 'boundaries' doesn't make it progressive and just because its labelled 'progressive' doesn't mean it is - its a label man, just like 'extreme'.

Granted they are talented but playing a thousand notes a minute does not make a band progressive. I would be proud to see Emperor or Enslaved alongside BG or Pain of Salvation. Diversity and an open mind is the only two things that will keep metal evolving.

What is it about 'Extreeme' metal fans that they try and spoil everybody else's fun by pushing in on other events and pissing on the parade. Why don't they just go and play quietly with themselves in the corner.

There is plenty of diversity on offer without going to the extreme of including Emperor.

 

[Jim LotFP]

Originally posted by chazzyf
What is it about 'Extreeme' metal fans that they try and spoil everybody else's fun by pushing in on other events and pissing on the parade. Why don't they just go and play quietly with themselves in the corner.

We do it because we enjoy exposing the small mindedness, hypocrisy, and hostility that is present when our efforts are made. It's great fun.

And we do it because our bands are no less talented, ambitious, imaginative, or deserving than yours.

We are not the divisive ones, you'll notice. The attitudes you display are the exact reason 'your' scene has trouble reaching a larger amount of people... because fans of other styles want you to just go play with yourself in the corner.

 

[Sanitariworm]

Originally posted by Jim LotFP
The attitudes you display are the exact reason 'your' scene has trouble reaching a larger amount of people... because fans of other styles want you to just go play with yourself in the corner.

You said it yourself. 'Our' scene... and 'Other styles'. That's why they don't belong at ProgPower.

This whole thread sounds like its about a bunch of guys who like ProgMetal but also like a few other closely related types of Metal and want to see them all at ProgPower. Well no... ProgPower is for that Prog Type music. I myself like various genres and mixes. Like Power, Power/Prog, Doom/Prog, Spee/Prog, Death/Prog, WhatHaveYou/Prog, and all that crap that also has prog elements. The key here is "elements". ProgPower should house Prog/Prog music. And that, my friends, is bands like Symphony X, PoS, Angra, and what have you. Sure you can call BG Power/Prog but Power + Prog is more inviting and accepted to prog listeners than things like Death/Prog.

What do you want? You can't have all your favorite bands at one concert. I don't know who called Dimmu even partially prog, but whoever did must think that everything he listens to is prog then... It's not, just accept it.

 

[zinescene]

Nobody called Dimmu Borgir prog at all. If you had read the earlier threads, I called Dimmu Borgir extreme metal that I like to listen to. I agree, they have nothing to do with Prog or Power. The original title of the forum posting was "How many people are into extreme forms of metal" and my comment was I like Dimmu Borgir, Witchery and Dark Funeral.

John Ridge
Underground Zine Scene

 

[Jim LotFP]

Originally posted by Sanitariworm
This whole thread sounds like its about a bunch of guys who like ProgMetal but also like a few other closely related types of Metal and want to see them all at ProgPower. Well no... ProgPower is for that Prog Type music.

Well, ProgPower is for whatever Glenn wants it to be. We're just making him pull his hair out by arguing things we have no real say in.

I personally think the festival should be for Prog/? bands. Make sure you diversify. Make sure your Symphony X types are represented, ALWAYS. But make sure your other Prog/? types are represented, ALWAYS.

I see absolutely no disadvantage to this. What, you're not going to like EVERY band on the festival? GOOD! How bland a thing is it going to be if everything is so predictable that every band appeals to one taste?

Diversifying means:
A- More tickets sold. Some people like Blind Guardian and Oain of Salvation. Do they like it enough to travel and spend $80 for them? Throw in some bands noticeably different that appeal to different tastes, and that $80 and travel expenses is a much easier decision. Packing on 8 more bands that fit under PoS or BG specifications is not the solution.
B- Cross-Pollination. Say someone comes because Opeth's on the bill, if they're finalized. I'd say there's a better than even chance that they've never heard Threshold. Maybe not Edguy. Maybe they've stayed away from Blind Guardian because it's that 'power metal shit.' So they're there, they spent the $80, they can check them out. Same will go the other way. And BOOM, something entirely new is discovered.
C- Some people won't want to hear it, so they get to CD shop while a band's on, which is a LOT less crowded than between bands when 1000 people are going to be in that lobby. At the same time, putting 300 more people than last time in that performance hall is going to be quite a squeeze, so having somebody CD shopping is going to make breathing easier as well.

If I can deal with Edguy being on the bill, I don't think anybody's going to be too pissy or stay home if eventually every year 3 or so bands out of TEN happen to have snarly vocals.

Last year, I was really into two bands on the bill. Nightingale and Spiral Architect. And I still considered it a grand success of an event from a fan perspective. This year, out of who is confirmed, there are three. And who knows who is still to be confirmed.

But open up the possibility that some slots are going to be filled with choices that doesn't fit with THEIR idea of what the fest should be, and it's the end of the world. This thing's a giant musical event, not your private listening party!

My advice: Celebrate that you'll have some favorites there. And give the rest a couple songs before you write them off and retire to the lobby.

 

[General Zod]

Jim LotFP... well said. For the most part, I would agree with you.

As the name applies, this is Progressive Metal and Power Metal music festival. If a band doesn't loosely fit into one of those two genre's then they probably shouldn't be invited. While I wouldn't be adverse to seeing someone like Emperor, even though I don't really listen to them, I don't really think that they should be invited. No matter who Glenn picks, there will always be some folks who are thrilled, and some folks who plan to do some CD shopping during their set. However, I will always give a band a chance to win me over, even a band whose music I've listened to and didn't like, before I go shop.

GZ

 

[lady_space]

Everything Jim said!

Seriously, tho, well put. I am looking forward to being exposed to some bands I've never heard before. 2.0 wound up making me a fan of a couple of bands that didn't overly impress me with what I'd heard before I saw them live. To me, that's fantastic and _well_ worth the price of tickets.

As far as the negative attitudes go, well, it says a lot about someone who has to call other people's music "shit." Piss off already. We're just *not* all going to like the same things.

Shaye

 

[MetalAges]

Whew, that was close.... I thought I was gonna have to break into my "Can't we all just get along" speech

We are Metalheads one and all, period. Oh, and Glenn books who he books for ProgPower, period .

Let's be nice!

 

[DAVETHEMETALGUY]

Being a Metal DJ, I have to play all types of metal whether someone requests BLIND GUARDIAN (the new one rocks by the way, just got the promo today) or whether someone requests CANNIBAL CORPSE, or LA GUNS or RHINO BUCKET. Regardless of MY personal taste, I play it because the listener (the consumer of the product I produce) wants to hear it
You guys are gonna start getting into the 'catorization' of these types of bands and there is really no solid critera for judging who's what and why.
I'm skipping the New England Metalfest and the NJ Metal Fest this year basically because it sucks. There are too many 'pay to play' bands who suck and they are separated by a curtain. I don't think any of us want that.
Listen to my show on www.newrock907.com on Friday nights from 10 until 2 CST. I swear you can play all these bands you guys mentioned and it sounds good, but as to the feasibility of pulling it off, I doubt it.

 

[Sanitariworm]

Good points good points.

I actually didn't know that the Power in ProgPower meant Power Metal. I just though it meant "power" to Prog Metal. Interesting.

True we are all just a bunch of metalheads but you gotta agree that there are huge differences between the different types of metalheads. 'Cause there are different types of metal, and there's alot of types of metal that I don't want to be associated with 'cause they just come off as "shit" to me (Slayer, Dimmu, Borknager, you see the trend). But it's all personal prefference because another metalhead would hear my metal as "shit" aswell. So no biggy... but we're talking about ProgPower here.

If ProgPower stands for Prog and Power Metal then that's like the perfect mix. I don't know about other poeple out there or you guys but Power and Prog Metal dominate my fav types of metal easily and thats the majority of what I listen. So I assume there are tons of people like this and that's who this show is geared toward (along with everyone else who can get hooked into this music aswel), and so far the bill matches ProgPower perfectly... untill Opeth gets added. I'm a minor fan of Opeths but I'm one of those guys who gets turned off by the growl and just prays that one day Opeth will go ALL clean vox 'cause they do fucking rock, I just can't listen to them.

So even though it's cool and I don't mind Opeth at this show, I can't say I think they belong there, 'cause they don't fit what the show is about and has always been about. If it keeps up and more and more different types of metal bands hit the bill then we might aswell lose the name ProgPower and it can be just a huge Metalfest. Not that I'm against that either, but we're talking about ProgPower here.

Does any of this make sense? Does everyone dissagree with me? Am I fucking lost?

 

[Jim LotFP]

Originally posted by Sanitariworm
So even though it's cool and I don't mind Opeth at this show, I can't say I think they belong there, 'cause they don't fit what the show is about and has always been about.

Has always been about? The fest has had two editions in the past 13 months. Hardly a grand and sweeping tradition quite yet.

And Opeth has headlined the European version of the festival already.

And if ProgPower is Progressive and Power metal, which I'd agree with, I still don't see how Opeth wouldn't qualify as progressive metal. The growling may run against some personal tastes, but doesn't toss them out of a genre...

 

[chazzyf]

Guess I should reply to some of the earlier points

From Jim

Well, ProgPower is for whatever Glenn wants it to be. We're just making him pull his hair out by arguing things we have no real say in.

No quibbles here - but it wouldn't be a real forum if we didn't squabble a bit would it?

I personally think the festival should be for Prog/? bands. Make sure you diversify. Make sure your Symphony X types are represented, ALWAYS. But make sure your other Prog/? types are represented, ALWAYS.

Again no problem - guess the issue is how far from the stereotype you go with your ? bands. Opeth would be about my personal limit, but it will vary

I see absolutely no disadvantage to this. What, you're not going to like EVERY band on the festival? GOOD! How bland a thing is it going to be if everything is so predictable that every band appeals to one taste?

In my experience if you like all the bands - or even the vast majority - and then watch them all, but the time the headliner comes on, I'm exhausted and ready to go home. It may be an age thing but I've learnt that I have to pace myself, so If I only like every other band, then that leave me time to chill, visit the bathroom, grab a beer etc in between. Its cool.

Diversifying means:
A- More tickets sold. Some people like Blind Guardian and Oain of Salvation. Do they like it enough to travel and spend $80 for them? Throw in some bands noticeably different that appeal to different tastes, and that $80 and travel expenses is a much easier decision. Packing on 8 more bands that fit under PoS or BG specifications is not the solution.

Possibily the most important factor, I have to admit. Outside the media-promoted big names, its important to attract more than one different fan/genre grouping. It is important of course to pick the right mix

B- Cross-Pollination. Say someone comes because Opeth's on the bill, if they're finalized. I'd say there's a better than even chance that they've never heard Threshold. Maybe not Edguy. Maybe they've stayed away from Blind Guardian because it's that 'power metal shit.' So they're there, they spent the $80, they can check them out. Same will go the other way. And BOOM, something entirely new is discovered.

True. I guess that our listening is probably a lot more varied than that of the general public and we take this sort of this for granted.

If I can deal with Edguy being on the bill, I don't think anybody's going to be too pissy or stay home if eventually every year 3 or so bands out of TEN happen to have snarly vocals.

No probs with a bit of snarly vocs, cos a few snarly vocs do not make a band 'extreme' IMHO - its more to do with the degree to which they use them and their 'orientation' - but I don't want to encourage a religious discussion here, so lets leave it at that.

Last year, I was really into two bands on the bill. Nightingale and Spiral Architect. And I still considered it a grand success of an event from a fan perspective. This year, out of who is confirmed, there are three. And who knows who is still to be confirmed.

I guess it depends upon how much access one has to these bands as to how successful they feel it is. For an Atlanta native seeing 2 bands might be enough, whereas for us Europeans, 2 acts that we are desperate to see may not be enough to make a visit to a particular festival. I've already seen 5 of the 7 bands - 4 of them fairly recently, with Angra to come agin later this month, but then the music is just one of a number of reasons for wanting to attend this year.

But open up the possibility that some slots are going to be filled with choices that doesn't fit with THEIR idea of what the fest should be, and it's the end of the world. This thing's a giant musical event, not your private listening party!

My advice: Celebrate that you'll have some favorites there. And give the rest a couple songs before you write them off and retire to the lobby.

Good advice.