Matt Barlow is back with Iced Earth! Good choice or bad?

[...AndTimeBegan]

Fuckin' A! I agree Just like I said. No one could tell for absolute certainty such things. & I.E. could have attained that success even if Matt had stayed. Did "Ripper"'s name add some hlep to that? well, to some degree yes. But, solely? Hell no! It'd take a hell of alot more than just some famous great singer to make a band successful!

If you read his post you'd see that Magius agrees with the fact that Owens helped the band. He said that bit with respect to a prior "assumption" that Iced Earth may have charted the Billboard top 200 because album sales as a whole are declining, which is indeed demeaning to the band. Second of all, your analogies in your next post have absolutely nothing to do with what's being discussed here dude. Led Zeppelin featured no members from other well known bands. This issue has nothing to do with the level of vocal talent but rather name notoriety, which Owens has more of than Barlow whether you want to believe it or not.

Whether or not Slash "sucks ass" at guitar has nothing to do with fame or album sales. Brittney Spears sucks at life, but she sells more than every band discussed here.

FYI I think Slash does indeed suck ass at guitar.


I have no idea why people are still arguing this concept of Tim helping the band out. My point was that if they had stuck with Tim, the band could have seen even more guaranteed success but Jon, clearly more interested in the music itself, hired the dude he felt was best for the band regardless of noteriety. That takes balls and dedication. I don't see how you guys don't understand this and instead argue technicalities.

 

[Magius]

What I meatn was not on the 'name' of the singer alone. If Slash sucked ass on guitar & was some nobody, who'd listen to V.R.? You have to have talented band members all round & the strong songs & whatnot.

If everyone in Zeppelin sucked but Plant, would they have been any good? & their songs were lame, but had great vocals!? I.E. were great w/all singers. Better w/Barlow & Ripper of course, but still! They'd have continued to gain more attention for themselves due to strong songs & full albums too!

While talent, which the various forms of Iced Earth have had, is a great thing it is in no way a requirement for commercial success. Conversely, talent guarantees no one any amount of success. Many extremely talented musicians in many excellent bands have toiled away for years only to disappear in the sea of obscurity.

 

[ratanda]

I found it with no problem... http://www.metalunderground.com/news/details.cfm?newsid=5342

That is not being a hypocrit, that is having a change of heart and in no way does Matt have to explain and give reason for this. It is as simple as human nature to be so emotionally moved to do what he felt was needed.

I totally agree. And I can't believe so many people are getting their panties in a wad over this.

 

[skyrefuge]

While your claim may have no basis in fact the numbers I provided do. Quoting last.fm listens is as pointless as using MySpace views to determin a band's popularity.

I'm not really making a claim, at least not with anywhere near the level of confidence that you guys are. I'm still trying sort out a somewhat conflicting set of facts, of which last.fm data is clearly one. So *why* is quoting last.fm listens pointless in this case? That's really what I was looking for. Because I was rather surprised when I saw the data...I would have expected to see more Owens-era stuff up there on the lists, and maybe there's some obvious explanation I'm not thinking of? Do you think that there could be something in the last.fm membership that makes them inherently more partial to Barlow-era material than the general population?

On the other hand 70,000+ copies is a Nielsen SoundScan sales figure. Billboard ranked "Framming Armageddon" #78 in their Top 200, not me. If you care to dispute those "claims" I can only suggest you take it up with those entities.

Again, those are not "claims". I agree with you, those are facts. Nielsen and Billboard are only saying "Iced Earth sold this many copies" not "...and here is the reason why: ...." That's would be the "claim" part of it.

It's also rather convoluted logic you applied to that ranking. Are we supposed to assume that Iced Earth only attained their all time highest Billboard position because all other artists in the Top 200 had low sales figures? Are we to extrapolate that Iced Earth's sales figures were the only ones to stay stable or rise slightly, while those of every other artist in the US suffered declining figures?

I agree that it's not a particularly logical hypothesis. I was just throwing ideas out there. But every Iced Earth release since Burnt Offerings has shown a significant increase in sales, so I'm not sure why the increases that happened to bring them above the #200 mark on the Billboard chart are then attributed mainly to Owens.

Your position is rather demeaning to the band, by the way, as it negates the remote possibility that maybe on some off chance Iced Earth actually may have earned that ranking based on their own merits, talent, and hard work. Clearly that can't be the case since Tim "Ripper" Owens sang on that album, and of course no one listens to Iced Earth with Ripper Owens. So say the last.fm numbers. And... Oh... Yeah... Ripper sucks.

None of that is my position.

Ripper was a household word in the Metal community. He fronted one of the most famous Metal bands in history and recorded 3 albums with them. He's toured the world a few times, and had his face on the cover of every major Metal magazine on several continents.

Since I was never a Judas Priest fan, I very well might be underestimating the pre-IE stature of Owens, but I'm pretty sure you guys are overestimating it. I don't subscribe to all the worldwide metal magazines, but weren't Jon and Matt on the covers of a lot of major metal magazines too? JP's tours in that period don't look much different than Iced Earth's, although they did have some dates outside the US and Europe. JP just wasn't that big in that era, much like Iron Maiden wasn't that big in the Blaze era.

Soundscans as of 2005:
Demolition - 110,281
Jugulator - 51,576

Surely there are people who had never heard of Iced Earth before and bought 'The Glorious Burden' because they heard Owens was singing on it. But how much did those added numbers outweigh those Iced Earth fans who *didn't* buy the album because Barlow wasn't singing on it, or did they outweigh them at all? I have no idea, and unfortunately, I think it's impossible to find that data.

However, there are those who have been pining over Barlow since- and make no mistake about this- he walked out on Iced Earth and them

You put a lot of confidence behind heavy metal press releases. I'm not trying to take credit away from anyone, or say who is "better"; I'm just trying to make sure that we're having a fact-based discussion, because I'm a data-whore!

Neil

 

[skyrefuge]

I meant that it took 5-6 years for Amon Amarth, not IE... lol duh

Ha, whoops! Well, I can't be blamed for guessing wrong at your ambiguous pronoun usage, you ambigious-pronoun-user! The only reason I brought up Amon Amarth in the first place was because I was surprised by the song list on IE's last.fm page. I expected that their recent releases would rank higher. So my first thought was "hmm, maybe last.fm data is just messed up, or it's normal to not have recent releases on the top of a list." So I semi-randomly chose a couple other bands to check if this was normal for last.fm. In no other way did I intend AA to be used as a comparison.

That Horror Show figure is wrong. 10 months after that album came out it had sold 31,967copies. (source: Blabbermouth posting Soundscan numbers from April 2002) As a result, so is your argument hehe.

Hmm, ok, well now we have actual conflicting facts. My source was http://www.allbusiness.com/retail-trade/miscellaneous-retail-retail-stores-not/4659392-1.html I have no idea how to determine which one is correct without access to Soundscan. One thing I will say is that the 53,000 seems to come from the record label's mouth, who might have a tendency to exaggerate (rather than from an independent website reporting on Soundscan figures), but then the 70,000 figure also seems to come from the same sort of record-label source.

Neil

 

[DEATHZILLA]

Matt is back! Woopee!!! Ripper is one of the best metal singers out there. This man is cursed by poor timing. Joining the Priest after Halford, and then Iced Earth after Barlow. Iced Earth fans got used to Barlow's voice and then condemed John saying he couldnt write music anymore ect basicly hung him on the cross. John could do no right but now Matt is back so i guess that the 2nd cd now is going to be a musical master piece, even thow the damn thing is basicly already wrote. Give me a break!

 

[The Fiddler]

December 16, 2007.

It will be sometime before I’m going to be doing press due to the holidays and the fact that I’m still deep in the final writing process of Part 2.I’m aware that the news of Matt coming back into to the band has taken many people by surprise so I’ll try to explain the situation a little better. I do love Tim’s voice and it is the kind of voice I hear when I write, and he’s really cool person. And I do not want an unnecessary war of words started because certain journalists like to create controversy to sell their magazines. I love Tim as a person and a musician, and I do not have negative feelings towards him at all. We would all appreciate it if the trash peddlers would respect the situation and keep their venomous speculations to themselves. An unlikely request I’m sure, but it would be nice

On the other side, Matt and I are brothers and there was a very deep and spiritual connection that came through in the music that we created and performed together over the years. Iced Earth has always been about passion and honesty in the music, I’m talking about real, raw emotion. That’s what has always made the relationship between the band and the fans a very special thing and it is the thing that made the chemistry that Matt and I had together so special. When we split before, our relationship had suffered from various things, but mostly it came down to not communicating like we should have, which led to things being blown out of proportion. This, coupled with the uncertainty of earning a secure living in the music business, resulted in Matt coming to the decision that he did. I convinced him to stay in the band, which he did, but it was clear that while tracking TGB, he was already mentally finished with music and was moving on to different things and to a more secure future. All of that is behind us and we have grown and matured and will have an even more fulfilling relationship because of what we’ve experienced and learned from the past.

Iced Earth activities will be more limited now because Matt will still be carrying on his career as a law enforcement officer. I would rather we do it this way and have the shows that happen be very special events than to carry on and feel like what’s happening isn’t genuine. This is NOT a cut on Tim. It’s just that Iced Earth really began to blossom after Matt joined the band and for years we worked our asses off together towards a common goal, on stage and off. Those years of work and commitment defined what Iced Earth truly is, and frankly I would rather end it than to carry on without Matt involved. All of this has been coming to a head for a while, and the talks with the fans in Europe helped cement what I already knew needed to happen. It’s one thing to be pressured by our business partners for change, it’s something else entirely when the fan base is overwhelmingly telling me the same thing. This decision is by the fans/for the fans. I wish only the best for Tim, this is not a standard bullshit statement, it’s the truth. A guy with so much talent deserves the best in life and that’s what I wish for him completely.

Jon Schaffer

 

[rms]

Sounds like a man crush on Barlow

 

[Theandromedastrain]

Sounds like a man crush on Barlow

wow that's a mature statement deriving from a man's integrity and honesty. im sure everyone will appreciate you taking the time to type that.

 

[...AndTimeBegan]

Sounds like a man crush on Barlow

Sounds like someone's butthurt because his premature generalizations and finger pointing were totally wrong.

 

[rms]

Sounds like people can't laugh once and awhile

 

[Perditions Ghost]

Sounds like people can't laugh once and awhile

Oh, we all love to laugh buddy.

But we're saving it for when Nevermore and Rhapsody aren't confirmed for IX.

 

[rms]

Oh, we all love to laugh buddy.

But we're saving it for when Nevermore and Rhapsody aren't confirmed for IX.

YE OF LIL FAITH

 

[...AndTimeBegan]

Oh, we all love to laugh buddy.

But we're saving it for when Nevermore and Rhapsody aren't confirmed for IX.

HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA

But in all seriousness, I kinda hope Rhapsody gets confirmed for IX also . Nevermore would be sweet too. Uh oh.

btw Fiddler.... are.. you.... Jon Schaffer? =O

 

[EJC_74]

While talent, which the various forms of Iced Earth have had, is a great thing it is in no way a requirement for commercial success. Conversely, talent guarantees no one any amount of success. Many extremely talented musicians in many excellent bands have toiled away for years only to disappear in the sea of obscurity.

True dude. But, what I am trying to say is, that I.E. earned their stripes! They'd not have sold so many CD's if they sucked ass! Yes this does happen in manstream pop-(as it al sucks ass!), but, not so much in Metal! & their success was built on this, & not just because Ripper joined the bamd is all. No diss to Rip, as he's one of the best fucking singers I've EVER heard! The man is like a human police siren! Most singers wish they could hit those high notes & for as long as he does! I bet he could shatter glass!

 

[EJC_74]

December 16, 2007.

It will be sometime before I’m going to be doing press due to the holidays and the fact that I’m still deep in the final writing process of Part 2.I’m aware that the news of Matt coming back into to the band has taken many people by surprise so I’ll try to explain the situation a little better. I do love Tim’s voice and it is the kind of voice I hear when I write, and he’s really cool person. And I do not want an unnecessary war of words started because certain journalists like to create controversy to sell their magazines. I love Tim as a person and a musician, and I do not have negative feelings towards him at all. We would all appreciate it if the trash peddlers would respect the situation and keep their venomous speculations to themselves. An unlikely request I’m sure, but it would be nice

On the other side, Matt and I are brothers and there was a very deep and spiritual connection that came through in the music that we created and performed together over the years. Iced Earth has always been about passion and honesty in the music, I’m talking about real, raw emotion. That’s what has always made the relationship between the band and the fans a very special thing and it is the thing that made the chemistry that Matt and I had together so special. When we split before, our relationship had suffered from various things, but mostly it came down to not communicating like we should have, which led to things being blown out of proportion. This, coupled with the uncertainty of earning a secure living in the music business, resulted in Matt coming to the decision that he did. I convinced him to stay in the band, which he did, but it was clear that while tracking TGB, he was already mentally finished with music and was moving on to different things and to a more secure future. All of that is behind us and we have grown and matured and will have an even more fulfilling relationship because of what we’ve experienced and learned from the past.

Iced Earth activities will be more limited now because Matt will still be carrying on his career as a law enforcement officer. I would rather we do it this way and have the shows that happen be very special events than to carry on and feel like what’s happening isn’t genuine. This is NOT a cut on Tim. It’s just that Iced Earth really began to blossom after Matt joined the band and for years we worked our asses off together towards a common goal, on stage and off. Those years of work and commitment defined what Iced Earth truly is, and frankly I would rather end it than to carry on without Matt involved. All of this has been coming to a head for a while, and the talks with the fans in Europe helped cement what I already knew needed to happen. It’s one thing to be pressured by our business partners for change, it’s something else entirely when the fan base is overwhelmingly telling me the same thing. This decision is by the fans/for the fans. I wish only the best for Tim, this is not a standard bullshit statement, it’s the truth. A guy with so much talent deserves the best in life and that’s what I wish for him completely.

Jon Schaffer

Thanx for this Todd. I'd actually like to know what Ripper thinks about all of this! I know he'd never say anything bad about Jon-(publicly). He's got too much class for that! But, I wonder if he feels he got the shaft? & if, he even saw this coming!?

 

[EJC_74]

wow that's a mature statement deriving from a man's integrity and honesty. im sure everyone will appreciate you taking the time to type that.

I agree! Again, why is he even wasting his time & ours on here? He admitted not even liking them!

 

[...AndTimeBegan]

True dude. But, what I am trying to say is, that I.E. earned their stripes! They'd not have sold so many CD's if they sucked ass! Yes this does happen in manstream pop-(as it al sucks ass!), but, not so much in Metal! & their success was built on this, & not just because Ripper joined the bamd is all. No diss to Rip, as he's one of the best fucking singers I've EVER heard! The man is like a human police siren! Most singers wish they could hit those high notes & for as long as he does! I bet he could shatter glass!

Dude I'm sorry but just stop. Bands don't sell CDs because of whether or not you think they are good. That's essentially what you're saying with " They'd not have sold so many CD's if they sucked ass!" That's YOUR opinion. Plenty of people (including metalheads) think Iced Earth sucks.

Bands sell CDs because of marketing, promotion, and money. The more money that goes into marketing and promotion (which includes touring), the more CDs the band will sell. There are plenty of metal bands that you think "suck" such as for example Lamb Of God (who I dislike as well) that sell waaaaay more than Iced Earth. Iced Earth "earned their stripes" through touring and label backing. When Tim joined the band, Iced Earth was in the press much more than usual and were also written up more by journalists etc due to Tim's "household name status." This allowed them to gain even more notoriety + album salels.

 

[ratanda]

Sounds like people can't laugh once and awhile

I thought it was funny. And I'm really surprised how uptight people can be sometimes.

 

[rushzil2112]

I am more than happy about Barlow being back. I never got a chance to see them with Barlow and I did get to see them with Ripper and here comes why I am extremely happy to have Barlow back. Ripper just didn't sound good singing the back catalogue. I was so excited to hear dracula live and it just didn't sound right, but I think Barlow would be better at singing Ripper's stuff than Ripper trying to sing like barlow on the older material. That is the only reasoning I am using. They both can sing their own stuff perfect, but Barlow to me would be better at singing Rippers.