TribunalRecords
Record Label(s)/Vocalist
in the immortal words of Flint Tropics' owner/player/coach Jackie Moon, "What that guy said!"
...for you crazy black metallers...Immortal North American Tour
- Thread starter edgeofthorns
- Start date
in the immortal words of Flint Tropics' owner/player/coach Jackie Moon, "What that guy said!"
skyrefuge
Member
I think we're basically in complete agreement on everything. The only confusion is over what I mean by "branding".
I started by talking about how the Emperor/Immortal tour design (limited exposure, charging twice what any similar bands had ever charged before), appeared to be a conscious effort to institute a Chivas Regal effect, or turn Emperor/Immortal shows into Veblen goods. Even having any idea what wtf a "Veblen good" is basically requires an MBA in Marketing, so my point was that these bands were taking a sophisticated strategic marketing approach more akin to a Fortune 500 company than a heavy metal band.
In my definition, appearing on magazine covers or achieving popularity does not mean you're "a brand". Getting magazine coverage is something that is obvious to any high-school-dropout/failed-drummer working at a label, and achieving popularity is entirely possible without any tricky psychological marketing scheme at all.
Carcass and At the Gates drive demand with their *music*, because it kicks ass. The same can be said of Immortal and Emperor, but it appears to me that they added a businessperson who attempted to create even further demand through non-musical methods, namely, by positioning them as exclusive luxury items. This was something new in the metal world.
In contrast, the At the Gates and Carcass tours were run exactly as you would expect from an uncreative metal industry just "doing things the way we've always done them". Both hit a bunch of major markets; in Chicago, At the Gates was $28 with a couple of high-paying openers, Carcass was $30 with the wonderful clusterfuck of openers.
I can't see any reason why there would be less demand for At the Gates and Carcass than for Emperor and Immortal, so the only explanation is a different marketing philosophy.
I guess the good news is that the AtG and Carcass tours came after the Emperor and Immortal tours, so if those were an attempt to jack up margins on metal shows across the board and institute a "new normal", it failed. And even Immortal appears to be relaxing somewhat; their sold-out 2007 show in New York *was* $70, so dropping down to $40 is a good deal.
Incidentally, Blabbermouth had a news item listing the sell-out for that 2007 show at 1014 tickets sold. 1014 x $70...hmm, I wouldn't be shocked if that's the actual source of the "$70,000 guarantee" rumor.
So randomly:
- Yeah, 'Heartwork' and 'Slaughter of the Soul' were awesome landmark records, which means to me that those bands were popular because their product was genuinely good, not because of a slick branding campaign by a Harvard MBA. Thus, not the result of "branding".
- I actually like 'Swansong' more than 'Heartwork', but that's because I'm a bit screwed in the head. I entirely agree that it's not representative, nor really are any of their albums because they were always changing. Which again, is not "branding"...a Marketing MBA would never allow such mixed messages! So I'm not sure where the confusion came from on that, but I think we all actually agree.
- Surely SotS was known by some in 1995, but I didn't even get it until 11/29/1997 (my anal record-keeping that keeps me from inadvertently making myths!
), and I'm pretty sure I was a fan longer than at least half the people at their 2008 show!Neil
Just a few personal notes.
I never read any of the heavy-metal focused magazines when I was younger. The first I ever heard about anything called 'black metal' was the August 1997 issue of Guitar World which focused on extreme metal/hard rock of varying types. Black metal was just a part of it - a 3 page spread, no interviews, just an overview and band names. Emperor and Arcturus were given accolades; Borknagar was included, Dimmu Borgir was noted as wanting commercial success (this was hot on the heels of Enthrone Darkness), and there was a note about Jon Notveid's arrest (pre-conviction). I don't remember Immortal being included unfortunately (they should've been). So that's where I found out about it.
Regarding ATG/Carcass vs. Immortal/Emperor. There is a intangible something about the way black metal fans view black metal as opposed to the way death metal fans view death metal. Black metal fans (especially in the U.S.) have a real tendency to latch on to black metal because it feels more like you're in some kind of elite club. It's hard for me to articulate but to put it really crudely, I think black metal fans get a kick out of feeling evil whereas death metal fans tend to just like the music and have more of a sense of humor and/or perspective. Additionally - I have no real data to back this up, only my personal observations over the years - U.S. black metal fans are often from a higher-income background, solidly middle-class, suburban types with disposable income. Death metal fans can of course be the same, but I've noticed a higher incidence of fans from a more working class background, living in poorer neighborhoods, have less discretionary money available.
I never read any of the heavy-metal focused magazines when I was younger. The first I ever heard about anything called 'black metal' was the August 1997 issue of Guitar World which focused on extreme metal/hard rock of varying types. Black metal was just a part of it - a 3 page spread, no interviews, just an overview and band names. Emperor and Arcturus were given accolades; Borknagar was included, Dimmu Borgir was noted as wanting commercial success (this was hot on the heels of Enthrone Darkness), and there was a note about Jon Notveid's arrest (pre-conviction). I don't remember Immortal being included unfortunately (they should've been). So that's where I found out about it.
Regarding ATG/Carcass vs. Immortal/Emperor. There is a intangible something about the way black metal fans view black metal as opposed to the way death metal fans view death metal. Black metal fans (especially in the U.S.) have a real tendency to latch on to black metal because it feels more like you're in some kind of elite club. It's hard for me to articulate but to put it really crudely, I think black metal fans get a kick out of feeling evil whereas death metal fans tend to just like the music and have more of a sense of humor and/or perspective. Additionally - I have no real data to back this up, only my personal observations over the years - U.S. black metal fans are often from a higher-income background, solidly middle-class, suburban types with disposable income. Death metal fans can of course be the same, but I've noticed a higher incidence of fans from a more working class background, living in poorer neighborhoods, have less discretionary money available.
Jasonic
Doom On!
While I agree, isn't this the reason everyone gets into metal initially?
It's always been the cult-like anti-mainstream aesthetic that draws you in to metal, esp at a young age.
Now, maybe this doesn't hold true for folks who get into metal at a later age, but I think it does for youngsters (Such as myself who got into hard rock / metal in the late 70s, primarily from KISS - ALIVE II). (No need to get into a debate as to whether you think KISS is metal or not, since that isn't the main point here, ha!)
General Zod
Ruler of Australia
That's probably part of it for most. For me, it was just the music at first. I heard Shout at the Devil and I was just mesmorized.
Zod
TribunalRecords
Record Label(s)/Vocalist
TribunalRecords
Record Label(s)/Vocalist
i agree.
it doesn't necessarily need to be an outside influence. more bands need to have a business sense today, and so many i have met don't.
i know i have had one from the inception of my own band. how to market effectively, merchandising, etc. we have done pretty well for ourselves without management or major metal label backing (not saying we haven't been offered deals) but it just took the right attitude and direction from the start.
Surely SotS was known by some in 1995, but I didn't even get it until 11/29/1997 (my anal record-keeping that keeps me from inadvertently making myths!
hahaha, yeah i am sure of it. even my own bandmates a few years back had no clue who ATG even were, but were fans of all the bands obviously influenced by them (As I Lay Dying, etc). i wanted to leap from the drivers seat of the van and strangle them all, but that is what i get for being 12+ years older than all of them. hahaha
Jasonic
Doom On!
Well, yeah, me too I suppose.
Though when I was wearing Motley Crue and Iron Maiden shirts in grammar school, I knew obviously that I was part of a small number of people who were into metal, so subconsciously (SP??) it was an appeal.
Jasonic
Doom On!
Smartass!! I am talking about 1978 / 1979 when my older brother played them for about 5 hours a day....
TribunalRecords
Record Label(s)/Vocalist
Smartass!! I am talking about 1978 / 1979 when my older brother played them for about 5 hours a day....
totally wasn't being a smartass, but since KISS were mentioned they really are a brand, even Gene has said so himself.
skyrefuge
Member
Yep, I always remember Jon Schaffer talking about how musical talent and business acumen were almost genetic traits that were mutually incompatible. You could have one or the other, but not both! Of course, he was an exception to this rule of thumb.
Only reason the Emperor/Immortal thing felt like an outside influence to me was because it appeared to be two separate bands operating under the same principle. And plus, have you seen the pictures of those Immortal guys? C'mon! They don't know an ASCAP from a recoupable from a battle-axe!
And yeah, Kiss is totally what I was talking about in terms of branded bands. And if we go more into black metal, the obvious one there is Cradle of Filth.
Neil
General Zod
Ruler of Australia
I'm not sure when my it occurred to me that music interests made me part of niche. I believe it was when I started going to shows.
Zod
Well we know that immortal is coming to the US, because it snowed in FL last night/this morning. And everything is covered in frost.
NobleKnight
Member
<<i could be mistaken on this but i am pretty sure Michael Amott and Bill Steer were the first guitarists from the death metal genre to be featured on the cover of guitar player magazine (any guitar guys remember that?! help? hahaha) after release of Heartwork.>>
That could be true. I distinctly remember when Trey Azagoth from Morbid Angel got on, I believe, "Guiter Player" magazines cover back around the Heartwork era, since it was unheard of for that type of music to get any sort of recognition. There is a band that I wish would get a new album out and tour. Haven't seen them since the Covenent and Domination tours.
Aaron
That could be true. I distinctly remember when Trey Azagoth from Morbid Angel got on, I believe, "Guiter Player" magazines cover back around the Heartwork era, since it was unheard of for that type of music to get any sort of recognition. There is a band that I wish would get a new album out and tour. Haven't seen them since the Covenent and Domination tours.
Aaron
Pellaz
Tigron of Immanion
No, that'd be Satyricon, not Immortal.
We were joking, while standing in line in 22-degree temperatures waiting to get inside for BtB&M, Cynic, Devin Townsend and Scale the Summit, that the weather was much more appropriate for Immortal, Burzum or Mayhem. Turns out that a guy actually flew over from Norway to see Devin Townsend perform, so clearly, he brought all this damned cold with him!
BenMech
student of the d'eh
We'll see it in 2010 and I'll be there with bells on as soon as they tour! I love everything about Morbid Angel, both the Vincent and the Tucker eras, I love everything about Trey's guitar style, and I'm foaming at the mouth for another tour-de-force from the gods themselves. Plus I'm due for a refresher in Sumerian mythology
I saw Morbid in an opening slot (for Soulfly) about five years ago. I drove through a blizzard to get there and the place was nearly empty (unfortunately, they played a very big place which made the sparse crowd look very bad) but seeing the band was awesome regardless. Since it was the Vincent return tour, they played only songs from the first 4 albums. I left before Soulfly.
Pellaz
Tigron of Immanion
I saw them.
And they have seen me.
</Arthur>
Considering Devy's technical issues and Cynic's shortened setlist (they had to drop "Veil of Maya"), StS were a real high-point of the evening.
Jasonic
Doom On!
Jasonic
Doom On!
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