Very sad......

[Jim LotFP]

Amazing that he'll report every financial dealing he makes to his government, but his fingerprints are sacred.

Talk about misplaced priorities...

I don't like the Patriot Act any more than him, but at least I know that there's little short of a police state that Bush can do that would match the infringement of our liberties and privacy that the IRS already represents.

Just because this needs to be repeated.

 

[AngraRULES]

It's fucking pathetic to see someone getting angry to the point of wanting to beat the living crap out of someone who does not agree with him. I am not gonna post my whole opinion on the subject because 1) I'm a foreigner who have a much different point of view than most of you guys who are Americans and will probably be crucified for having my own way to see things 2) metal71 would probably wanna do the same thing that he wants to do with Daniel Gildenlow just because of my point of view, which is absolutely ridiculous. Chill the fuck out, as someone said.

Just keep something in mind. Every single empire in the whole world throughout history has fallen. The whole isolationist thing is the most pathetic idea I've ever heard. It shows exactly what many people all around the world think about the US : Self centered people who don't care a lot about the rest of the world. And don't give me the bs that you care about the world and that's why the US is in Iraq right now, cause it won't work.

 

[Kenneth R.]

i agree and that is why i have come to conclude that patriotism beyond mild confidence in one's nation is unjustified. no nation in current or past existence has ever been worth more than its own people, and none of them have been run with the efficency and justice necessary to warrant such sweeping and blatant patriotism. personally i'm disgusted when i see american flags on every bumpersticker, because the rampant and senseless proliferation of our national symbol has totally removed itself from the intended original meaning it represented.

we are no more or less free than anyone else, and if i am to go to verbal or physical war over something, it certainly will not be some state. if i am to fight for a cause, my cause will be that of people and not of a regime. remeber folks, its right there in the declaration of independence. if the system fails us, it's our duty as citizens to take action to change it, not decieve each other with fabricated lies to make it seem right.

 

[AngraRULES]

patriotism beyond mild confidence in one's nation is unjustified.

Amen to that.

personally i'm disgusted when i see american flags on every bumpersticker, because the rampant and senseless proliferation of our national symbol has totally removed itself from the intended original meaning it represented.

About time someone understands that! 100% agreed.

we are no more or less free than anyone else

I wish every person in this country would realize that.

 

[Jim LotFP]

we are no more or less free than anyone else

If you recognize this, what are you doing to change it? Or don't you think people should strive to be more free?

 

[AngraRULES]

Why this neverending wish to become More this, More that... More money than the rest, more power than the rest, more freedom than the rest.... Come on.... Is the US ever gonna accept being just another country in the world? Or do you have to be #1 in everything? Again it sounds very egocentrical to me.

The US is really far from being a lot more free than the rest of the world, although the most proud Americans will never admit that.

 

[Nightmare1z]

The isolationist comment wasn't a serious comment in that's what I want Angra, it is that maybe we should do that to give the world something more to bitch about. If that comment, which you seemed to miss the impact, confirms how we're self centered, then more power to you.

However, don't think that all Americans think the world is this smart, loving place either where people dance in paradise. I've had many discussions on European forums and the ignorance astounds me. Not only the hate for America, but just plain skewing of facts.

One discussion involved Europeans out there who think the US came into World War II riding the white horse, and just to steal the glory of victory. That because we lost no life on our soil *not referring to the Japanese campaign*, we can have no real opinion on the matter. That the US came in late after everyone did all the fighting that way we could be part of the victors. I just can't flat out believe people are this fucking stupid. I mean, how corrupt is the learning over in Europe that WW2 is now painted as a moment in history with the US just trying to be part of the victors? Do some research. If you have any understanding of US policy at the time, you'll know that the mass public opinion was against going into war. That the president who favored going in, had to go through all the legal mumbo jumbo to try and help *lending the planes, ships, etc to Britain*. How he was getting threats of impeachment because of his actions in trying to help in WW2. You get the point. At the end of the discussion, they still didn't get it. They only saw it their point of view.

Maybe the US history books should teach us that European countries were morons for trying to keep peace with the German regime for so long. That anyone with a half-dead brain could realize that such buildup of military power is not just trying to rebuild their economy. That way we'll have these vast corrupt idea's on both sides of the ocean!!! [/sarcasm]

The point stands, the US is not a perfect country. But if all the discussions I've seen on international forums are actually the majority opinion of foreign countries, then damn. Call the US self-centered only caring about ourselves. But at least we're not fucking ignorant people distorting history and sacrifices made just to give a country a bad name.

And yes, all Empire's have fallen.

However, all people die too. Nothing is forever. What matters is the here and now, not the future. It is for certain that the US will lose its power one day, the same as future mass powers will as well. To try and structure every policy around the ideal of keeping US the 'head of the game' versus what matters in the present is stupid as they would still fall. Policies should be concerned with the present and with the future in balance.

 

[Jim LotFP]

Why this neverending wish to become More this, More that... More money than the rest, more power than the rest, more freedom than the rest.... Come on.... Is the US ever gonna accept being just another country in the world? Or do you have to be #1 in everything? Again it sounds very egocentrical to me.

The US is really far from being a lot more free than the rest of the world, although the most proud Americans will never admit that.

I'll admit it, which is why I never vote Democrat or Republican. The current system STINKS.

And any country (or any individual) who is satisfied with being 'just another country' (or just another person) is pretty worthless. Maybe striving to be #1 in EVERYTHING is unrealistic, but striving and excelling at something is important. At least to me. Blending into the crowd makes one worthless. If that's an American viewpoint, well, God Bless America.

 

[Nightmare1z]

Agreed. Also Angra we are just another country in the world. But to deny that we have more power then most in areas is fact - whether it hurts for people to see or not.

Compare a president and a civilian. They both are individuals, in a long line of people. However, one has more power then another. That's just a damn fact.

 

[Sautherom]

my opinion like Foreign
this measure should be for everybody, ever nationality, when you go to a foreign country. When this method is only for some people, for some nationality, this is a descriminatory measure.

I'm going frequently to US, and every time U.S. migration take me a pic and fingerprint (U.S. migration must have a collection of my pic's and fingerprints)

I saw last year in the TV news, When Brazil used a similar method to US citizen to go to Brazil, the US citizen feels offended.

"don't wish to others, what you don't want to be wished to you"

 

[Kenneth R.]

If you recognize this, what are you doing to change it? Or don't you think people should strive to be more free?

i do what every american citizen can do: i vote, and i vote for myself. i don't subscribe to any party, my vote is my own and no one else's. in addition to that, i pester the officials about issues i care about so they know people are watching their every move.

 

[Yngvai X]

Is this anything like "If you don't like PoS, you obviously just don't get it"?
if so,
fucking typical.......

No, because I thought BE was a steaming pile of walrus dung .

my point was, try to put yourself in Daniel's shoes about going to a country that he's obviously paranoid about for whatever reason (pretend it isn't even the US right now if that helps).

And Claus has a very good point. Dusting stripper ass is a common practice in atlanta I hear

 

[J-Dubya 777]

No, because I thought BE was a steaming pile of walrus dung .

my point was, try to put yourself in Daniel's shoes about going to a country that he's obviously paranoid about for whatever reason (pretend it isn't even the US right now if that helps).

And Claus has a very good point. Dusting stripper ass is a common practice in atlanta I hear

Ok, fair enough on the original comment...I actually still have OHBtCL, but have dumped anything else by them.

I still don't get his "paranoia". It's a simple method of identification, not like we're trying to microchip him or barcode him.......

 

[mtlheart]

we are no more or less free than anyone else...

Been to Cuba, Syria, Iran, North Korea, China, or Viet Nam lately?

 

[Mattias the Bitch Boy]

Hey Shaye, which one on that picture is you?

 

[Barking Pumpkin]

Okay.....someone else got a lengthy email reply from Daniel Gildenlow responding to a lot of the things mentioned here.

Hi Steven,

Thank you for your e-mail. Phew, I hope I won't be getting too many e-
mails of this length regarding this specific issue It was not
meant to be known to the public until after the tour, it's
unbelievable how things are spreading. The local news paper managed
to find out and then a few days later it's all over the Internet -
still have problems understanding how fast these things get public.

Afraid? You think this is about my personal fingerprints? Paranoia? I
am not afraid for my own sake. It was never about that. If you fail
to see how having your physical unique fingerprints registered by a
foreign government infringes on integrity and global democratic
values then I guess we are very far apart in this discussion to start
with. I want to go to the States - I planned a car trip through
Arizona next summer. I long to play our music for the wonderful US
fans. But I will not have my finger prints registered to go to ANY
country. It is simply not done. It ends here.

Your government is now passing laws without going through the senate,
bypassing important democratic constructions that were built and
maintained for the people, for democracy and freedom - that's where
the Star Wars analogy comes in. The States was the new world, built
in many aspects to start again fresh from the paranoid, powerful and
conservative reign of the British Empire. Where are those ideas and
ideals now? The values that built your country are being flushed down
the drain by people who are afraid, people who have lost control and
try to regain it by use of sheer power. The forefathers of your
beloved constitution would start to weep if they were not already
weeping from having been misquoted and used as rhetorical bats (not
referring to the animal by the way) so many times already during the
last five decades.

Fingerprints are just as signatures in the states? First of all I
think you are way off here. Secondly; so even if they were? What leap
of logic makes you use normative behavior as an equivalent of an
analogous level of correctness? Even if you would have to leave your
fingerprints on a daily basis just to go to the bathroom, that
wouldn't make it right, would it? There are tons of examples of the
most horrid things that people in different nations have done without
raising an eyebrow, because it was the norm. So what? What is your
point?

Are you really comparing fingerprints to pictures? I cannot believe
that you are serious about this. I might add that there is no other
country that I've been to where they will take your picture at the
border and store that in governmental files, but even if they did
(which I would find very annoying from a democratic point of view
also by the way) I would find that to be on a completely different
scale than having your fingerprint registered. Next step will be
retina scans - how about that, you feel comfortable with that too?
Where do YOU draw the line? And do not consider this from a point of
view where people are getting into your country, imagine what you
would be willing to submit yourself to just in order to go to another
country, say, France or Canada. Your government has also passed a law
about an upcoming state ID as I understand it. You will need IDs to
go from state to state - so what's the point of having a nation then?
When did you agree to this? When were you asked or informed about
this? If you stuff enough orange and red codes down people's throats
they seem very reluctant to defend their open and free society.

I always found "Brave New World" to be much more interesting than
"1984" because where the latter is a supposed-to-be-scary vision of a
future based dictatorship-like Big Brother society, the former is
based on the idea that all those cut-downs on freedom and democracy
can be made with the full support of the people. Status, easy living
and a loving touch of fear - that's the key to a good grip on the
people. See, the reign through dictatorship never works in the long
run because if you slip for a second you will be overthrown. But with
the right conditioning, the people will submit themselves to marking,
registering, surveillance and control - and they will pay for it and
say thank you afterwards. Of course this is not made by an evil
leader - I don't believe in good and evil. It is done by a scared
leader. In some american states you can now have an electronic ID
surgically implanted in your wrist. Sure, it costs money, but then
you're able to pay for your beer simply by putting your wrist on a
reading device. All new mobile phones can be traced geographically,
like a homing device. Sure, they are expensive, but they have very
nice cameras and polyphonic signals. Public surveillance cameras?
Well, I have been very scared of criminality lately, and I have
nothing to hide so... Retina scans? Sure, you want my DNA too,
perhaps my first born child? This is not a good way - you are
treading down a bad path. It has been done before and it never works
out in the long run. That's all I'm saying.

I am losing potential money by sticking to my ideals - yes. I do not
see what's wrong with that.

I am not the one inhibiting my freedom. Your government is. They set
up the conditions that I cannot possibly accept. Anyone could do the
same thing for you, just let us know where you draw YOUR line. The
leap of logic here is just enormous and again, it beckons me to read
things like this. By the way, my fingerprints are not in my passport,
just to inform you. Neither is my DNA. My picture and my signature is
in there, along with all the personal information about age,
appearance and so on. And I would say that, along with the
information that I have already submitted to your government about my
whereabouts for the last 10 years (date-by-date), all my educations
and addresses to all schools and employers, all the information about
my wife and family and all the papers I have filled in promising not
to do this or that or to bring snails into your country - don't you
think that should be enough? I have submitted all that and more. Now
you want fingerprints, and retina scans is on their way. This is
where I draw the line. Especially since I heard the other week that
your government threatened Brazil with a complete market stop
(embargo, is that the right word?) when they wanted to use
fingerprints too. Apparently, this is a one-way right at the moment.
I cannot submit to this, I simply cannot. I am making a stand for
what I truly believe in - and I have nothing to gain from it.

So you hate the decisions just as much as I do? Well, you can vote.
Tada. As for the others of us, we can only watch and take the
consequences. These are my only means of democratic action - the
decision not to leave my fingerprints. It is not for my own sake, but
for the sake of global democracy and human rights. It is what is
usually called a "principle" (a concept frowned upon by much of
contemporary society it seems). This is NOT done. This is NOT right.
We are heading the wrong way, step by step, in steps so small that we
never feel that we're crossing lines. But the direction is pretty
clear. Well, I am stopping here, this is the step, of so many, that I
simply won't take. You go on if you like, I won't stop you even
though I cannot understand how you can possibly feel fine with
proceeding - I am making my stand and I am making it here. I am
truly sorry for the US fans. I am sorry for myself. But most of all,
I am sorry for freedom and democracy. Two concepts that have been so
often used to defend many actions, but have so seldom been defended
in action themselves.

On a final note; yes, I believe that one person can change the world.
That's why I still take action for what I believe in, even if I am
alone in this decision. You say you contacted me because you believe
this too and hoped to change my mind. Well, the difference between
you and me regarding this, is that you are trying to change my mind
into what everybody else does. I claim I am taking sides with
democracy, human rights, freedom, globalism and humanism. I also
claim I am taking sides with the American people. You would probably
claim the same, which means one of us is wrong. I hate to say this,
but I'm pretty sure it's not me.

With as much love as I can possibly muster,
Daniel

PS: You are free to publish this on the forum if you wish, as part of
the discussion.

I wonder what metal71 has to say to this.

Seeing as how I am both a Swede and a European:

NO, Swedes don't give there fingerprints for ANYTHING at all. Never. Nope. Nada. Won't happen.
I think that they take some blood for some DNA-register, but that's it. (I don't really know how the dna-thing works, if it even exists - I could be lying )

 

[Mattias the Bitch Boy]

You know what a good response to that email would be?

"Pissed?"

 

[booB]

Since I'm bored and dying to be a smartass today...

i do what every american citizen can do: i vote, and i vote for myself

great! Are you running again in 2008?

No, because I thought BE was a steaming pile of walrus dung

...you obviously just don't get it.

And Claus has a very good point. Dusting stripper ass is a common practice in atlanta I hear

That's why the thinkers among us prefer to lick the fingerprints off.

 

[Yngvai X]

Daniel Gildenlow's entire email to "Steven"

Since he didn't technically post it here it probably doesn't count but...post of the fucking year. All the more proof of what I already knew that Daniel is genius-level smart.

 

[Kenneth R.]

for those who misquoted me or just plain didn't understand: when i said i vote for myself, i mean i vote for my own beliefs and my own views, not those of any party. if you fail to see than and thought i meant i literally wrote my name on the ballot, you are hopeless.

and yes to the other question, i have been to some questionable nations and i assure that is not even the point. people, humanity, we are all born free. regardless of what class, regime, or system is around us. we have the right and duty to enforce our freedom if it is so taken from us, and true freedom, that of the mind, is only taken through submission. don't even dare say that americans are more "free" than other people. they may be slaves to dictators, most americans are slaves to television and pop culture.

and to what was posted by Daniel above. AMEN.