The Return of the "How it Happened" post...PP USA XI

[Metalmilitia2000]

Always.

Zod

I'll thank you for the cheerleading, as soon as you get out of that fucking skirt....

 

[sava_freak]

You know I would have rioted if there was no Seventh Wonder next year. I was one of main one who had been begging for them to come.

As far as Choices, I look forward to the "Glenn Choices". I mean a few years ago Mustach, although a replacement band, blew my socks off. That had to be one of the funnest sets ever.

I mean to say I trust Glenn. I am not one to critize. I understand it is a VERY difficult job to try to balence all he does in choosing.

And I hate all this Power vs. Prog BS. IF you dont like the line up or if your upset because you feel its tilted in one fav or another..... DONT BUY A TICKET. Period end of story. ME, I like the prog stuff but keep an open mind, I mean Sabaton kicked major ass this past year.


Glenn, keep doing what you are doing, thank you for all that you do, and by God do not ever stop

sava_FREAK

 

[Metalmilitia2000]

You know I would have rioted if there was no Seventh Wonder next year. I was one of main one who had been begging for them to come.

As far as Choices, I look forward to the "Glenn Choices". I mean a few years ago Mustach, although a replacement band, blew my socks off. That had to be one of the funnest sets ever.

I mean to say I trust Glenn. I am not one to critize. I understand it is a VERY difficult job to try to balence all he does in choosing.

And I hate all this Power vs. Prog BS. IF you dont like the line up or if your upset because you feel its tilted in one fav or another..... DONT BUY A TICKET. Period end of story. ME, I like the prog stuff but keep an open mind, I mean Sabaton kicked major ass this past year.


Glenn, keep doing what you are doing, thank you for all that you do, and by God do not ever stop

sava_FREAK

Very well said...

 

[Pellaz]

Fantastic post and explanation, Glenn. These never disappoint!

The problem with Labour Day weekend in Atlanta, is that it is Dragon*Con weekend. As much as I will choose PPUSA over D*C, anyday, it's a scheduling clusterf*&k.

Yep. For this reason alone I was hoping Glenn would push the festival one weekend back in 2010...but oh well. I'll survive.


Regarding prog and power "snobbery"....

Really, it comes down to one thing: prog fans are more likely to sit through a power-metal band than vice-versa. Translated, this means that powermetal fans are less likely to buy tickets for a prog-heavy lineup than prog fans for a power-heavy lineup.

Even though as a more prog-oriented fan, next year's lineup wouldn't have me in its "target demographic"....this lineup really DOES kick a lot of crossover ass. The power bands that ARE confirmed have a great deal of crossover appeal for me.

 

[Met-Al]

I'm still confused as to how bands like Fates Warning and Crimson Glory (playing exclusive U.S. shows, no less) aren't enough to draw a crowd. Though I was having the time of my life watching these headliners, I was extremely saddened to see that a good portion of the venue was empty for those sets.

Though I'm a huge progressive metal fan, I don't think I qualify as a prog snob. For example, I may prefer Fates Warning to Brainstorm, but I spent just as much time pumping my fist to the German power metal onslaught as I did singing my heart out to one of my all-time favorite prog bands. I wish more people could appreciate both of these subgenres of music, as they generally both fall under the melodic metal flag. That's essentially why I love them both; they're heavy, yet melodic.

That said, I completely understand the logic behind the lineup for next year's fest. I'm admittedly not pissing myself over it, but that's merely becuase I've already seen the bands that would have previously had me extremely excited (Hammerfall, Kamelot, and Nocturnal Rites). I think I'll be more interested in seeing DGM, Illusion Suite, Paradox, Seventh Wonder, and Stormwarrior once I dig deeper into their material. Finally, I enjoy Tyr (another band that I have seen live), and I think those who peg them as just another Pagan/Viking metal band will be sorely mistaken upon seeing their performance. Overall, I get the feeling that this show will have a similar effect on me as the one I received from ProgPower IV. I felt somewhat disappointed in the lineup at first, but by the weekend of the fest, I was back to being a happy little metalhead. Here's to hoping for a return to sold-out status!


Stay metal. Never rust.
Albert

 

[nomisofsiman]

I'm still confused as to how bands like Fates Warning and Crimson Glory (playing exclusive U.S. shows, no less) aren't enough to draw a crowd. Though I was having the time of my life watching these headliners, I was extremely saddened to see that a good portion of the venue was empty for those sets.

I don't know about a good portion of it being empty. It seemed to be pretty packed, especially for Crimson Glory. Crimson Glory also isn't pure prog. They're more old school metal with more artistic touches. I'm still dumbfounded how it didn't sell out, but as I said in a previous post...

My theory is that because both of the bands are fairly old bands back from the 80s and so they don't have the modern day relevancy as a lot of the other past headliners have. Crimson Glory in particular hasn't been relevant really in about a decade and a half. So that's my theory and I'm sticking to it. Although with Crimson Glory, there are two things. 1. They were a replacement. 2. A lot of people might have been apprehensive in terms of it being a tribute with multiple singers, despite it working very, VERY well in my opinion since you know a lot of people won't consider it Crimson Glory without Midnight.

 

[ArkansasBuzzard]

Jesus, Glenn...your fingers ought to be tired. Entertaining read, though.

I'll be honest, there's almost always a band or two each year where I say "that's when I'll go get something to eat, or take a break." Not for XI though. There's not a single band on the list that I'm not excited about. Sure, there are a couple of bands I would have liked to have been included, but I'm sure that's true of everyone. I think this is definitely the strongest lineup since VI, and that says a lot right there. In fact, the only thing I'm not crazy about so far is the new logo. Nothing at all wrong with it, per se, but I just really liked the old one. Guess I don't do change too well. All in all, I'm super excited about next September.

-Buzz

 

[Savatar76]

Many thanks for the post and insight, Glenn.

This lineup is going to be a MONSTER and I cant wait to once again be there to experience with everyone !!

 

[Magius]

Agreed 100%. My opinion for outside this forum is that power metal fans will endure prog metal bands to see their bands. Prog metal fans will not endure power metal bands to see their bands. They will stay home and wait on Dream Theater & the bands Zod spoke of to come around once per year. That's why one of the biggest prog metal forums on the web (Portnoy) may have only 10 people attend max. It reinforces the prog snob stereotype completely in my eyes.

Regarding prog and power "snobbery"....

Really, it comes down to one thing: prog fans are more likely to sit through a power-metal band than vice-versa. Translated, this means that powermetal fans are less likely to buy tickets for a prog-heavy lineup than prog fans for a power-heavy lineup.

Just curious, did you purposefully paraphrase the exact opposite of Glenn's post, or was that coincidence?

In either event I disagree with you. By your reasoning I, and a lot of Power fans, would not have been there at all on Saturday. Glenn has also stated that there was an up tic in sales for Saturday. Yet as Met-Al pointed out "a good portion of the venue was empty... " for Fates. So which band led to said up tic? Arguably, one could attribute it to the under card as a whole, but Fates should have a similar fan base as three of those four. Power fans had to sit through three Prog bands to see Brainstorm, and the venue was packed for them.

Further, every year that has had big Power Metal bands on top have sold out. Therefore, Power metal fans had to sit through Prog bands to see the headliners. Conversely, the years that had Prog bands at the top (VII and X) didn't. Apparently Prog fans didn't sit through Power bands to watch the headliners.

Granted there are some extenuating circumstances. ProgPower USA II had one of each, but 9-11 greatly impacted that year. IX had one of each also, but Riverside and Amorphis had the two smallest crowds that year. I'd concede that Amorphis' growls may have had something to do with their attendance, but Riverside should have packed in Prog fans. And of course X had the factor of the economy to contend with. Nevertheless, as Glenn stated in the beginning of this thread, this year was a Prog Metal lover's dream and they didn't show up.

 

[Cheiron]

Maybe the 'prog snobs' spend all their money on NEARFest and RoS?

I don't know. Draw is very weird to me. Circle II Circle gets lots of love at ProgPower, but can barely draw a classroom attendance when on tour in the U.S.

There are very few good prog bands, while there are a hundred power metal bands that people would want to see.

I think there's a big difference between bands that people enjoy seeing and bands that will cause people to spend a bit of their income to go see.

Glen, which headliner was heavily influenced by being on somebody's sponsor list?

 

[YearsOfMetal]

Honestly as a POWER fan, I like that there are a good number of prog bands, it gives me time to go see the merch tables and socialize. Shopping for metal with a beer in my hand makes me a happy girl.

 

[General Zod]

I'll thank you for the cheerleading, as soon as you get out of that fucking skirt....

Your just jealous because I have nicer legs than you.

Zod

 

[Dominick_7]

About Prog snobbery, I think personally I am a dead split between the two genres, as the main two reasons I wanted to go this year was because of Andre Matos (I think could be considered more so power or more so melodic metal with progressive elements or a good mix of them) and Vanden Plas (I think could be considered a progressive metal band). If I had to go with one genre I think I'd go with power metal because many times you have progressive and or technical stuff in it anyways. If only Vanden Plas played I'd have gone, if only Matos played I would have definitely gone. So I don't know where I fit statistically but just thought I'd throw that out there. The other bands I wanted to see were Circus Maximus, Pagan's Mind, and Orphaned Land. This year I'm not really excited about the lines up, but so far I'd be looking forward to seeing Delain and Kamelot. Hammerfall is pretty cool, but I need to check out several of the other bands I'm not as familiar with.

 

[johnfrank1970]

To clarify for the rest of the world, no promoter is ever going to truly satisfy John's tastes. I mean that in the nicest way too.

Heh heh. Well, I have been to two of your fests and had a blast.

As far as other festivals, I think some of the European lineups have been great overall, but I am never going to be able to justify travel to Europe for a concert.

Sure, I would love a complex/tech/prog fest, but I totally understand that is not financially viable. I would also love a classic thrash fest, which would seem to be doable, but the only event like this I can recall was Thrash of the Titans.

Oooh, a classic melodic death fest would be awesome too. Yeah, that's gonna happen.

So, yeah, you're right, I am not enough of a genre fanboy to automatically like most fest lineups. For example, Maryland Deathfest and New England Metal and Hardcore Fest each have a few bands I'd like to see (but never the headliners) and 50 other bands I would actively avoid watching.

 

[General Zod]

I think the whole idea of "Prog snobbery" has always been an ill-conceived concept and deploying it as an explanation for poor attendance is even less valid.

For starters, why is it that a Prog Metal fan who isn't interested in Power Metal is a snob, while a Power Metal fan who isn't interested in Prog Metal, is never tagged with a similarly negative designation? Liking Prog Metal, while not liking Power Metal, doesn't make you a snob. It simply means your tastes aren't as wide ranging. This is no different than the tastes of a Death Metal fan who isn't interested in Prog. Personally, I love both and find a blend of the two to be the best of all worlds.

As for it explaining the attendance numbers... it doesn't. It doesn't explain it from the absurd "snob" concept, nor does it explain it from the belief that Prog fans don't support their genre as well as Power Metal fans. This is Occam's razor in effect; it's simple math. There are simply less Prog Metal fans. This is nothing new. It's always been this way. Anyone recall Maiden opening for Queensryche? Or Priest opening for Dream Theater? No. Prog Metal has now, just as it's always had, less appeal, and consequently a smaller fan base.

Zod

 

[Jasonic]

I'm still confused as to how bands like Fates Warning and Crimson Glory (playing exclusive U.S. shows, no less) aren't enough to draw a crowd.

These never were drawing bands, even back in the day.
Their inactiveness certainly hasn't helped increase their fanbase.

Sorry, but I go back to my statements on how we get wrapped up on how popular a band is, based solely on how they are praised on the forums. THIS IS DEADLY!

Bands from "back in the day" who have been inactive have lost fans over the years as many of them are no longer into the music. As younger metal fans come along, it isn't so easy for a non-active band to gain their attention, as of course, younger fans will lean towards more active bands.

 

[General Zod]

These never were drawing bands, even back in the day. Their inactiveness certainly hasn't helped increase their fanbase.

Truth.

Sorry, but I go back to my statements on how we get wrapped up on how popular a band is, based solely on how they are praised on the forums. THIS IS DEADLY![/quote]More truth.

Bands from "back in the day" who have been inactive have lost fans over the years as many of them are no longer into the music.

And let's not forget that FW has never been considered a great live band, even by their own fans, and that CG was without their lead singer, who was the star of the band.

Zod

 

[Harvester]

Prog Metal has now, just as it's always had, less appeal, and consequently a smaller fan base.

Zod

A spade is a spade Zod. You & I just don't play cards at the same table often.

I disagree with you argument above based on population pools alone. If this was only being sold as a local show, I agree totally. However, I pull from across the country. Comparing that available pool to the relatively small amount of tickets sold invalidates that to me.

Heres a hypothetical situation:

Two shows:

A. Blind Guardian, Pain of Salvation, Sabaton, Riverside.
B. Fates Warning (or sub any non DT related pure prog band), Gamma Ray, Vanden Plas, Brainstorm


You have 100 possible attendees. All of them with the same geographical logistics and travel costs, etc. Exactly half of them are prog fans, half of them are power fans. Which show draws more out of those 100? And are you willing to put your money on the line based on your answer?

 

[Jasonic]

Glen, to be honest, I always viewed your booking of FW this year as more of a personal accomplishment, which was targeted towards the regular attendees. I never viewed it as a booking that would draw in new attendees. That's just me though. While I personally can appreciate some FW, I never thought of them as even a semi-popular band. They were always low man on the bill on whatever tour package they were on, both back in the day, and within the past 10 years.

 

[Harvester]

I never thought of them as even a semi-popular band.

My rebutal would be album sales and that include comparing a release like "X" to the sales here in the States of someone like Edguy.

Have they passed their peak? Absolutely. However, their fanbase is just as big, if not bigger than some of my prevoius headliners at the time of their performance.