The Return of the "How it Happened" post...PP USA XI

[Dolamite S. Biffle]

I think the whole idea of "Prog snobbery" has always been an ill-conceived concept and deploying it as an explanation for poor attendance is even less valid.

For starters, why is it that a Prog Metal fan who isn't interested in Power Metal is a snob, while a Power Metal fan who isn't interested in Prog Metal, is never tagged with a similarly negative designation? Liking Prog Metal, while not liking Power Metal, doesn't make you a snob. It simply means your tastes aren't as wide ranging. This is no different than the tastes of a Death Metal fan who isn't interested in Prog. Personally, I love both and find a blend of the two to be the best of all worlds.


Zod

I think its more that the Prog snobs think that Prog is so much better then Power because its more tech or complex. Where as the Power will typically just say its just fucking boring. lol

 

[Dolamite S. Biffle]

A spade is a spade Zod. You & I just don't play cards at the same table often.

I disagree with you argument above based on population pools alone. If this was only being sold as a local show, I agree totally. However, I pull from across the country. Comparing that available pool to the relatively small amount of tickets sold invalidates that to me.

Heres a hypothetical situation:

Two shows:

A. Blind Guardian, Pain of Salvation, Sabaton, Riverside.
B. Fates Warning (or sub any non DT related pure prog band), Gamma Ray, Vanden Plas, Brainstorm


You have 100 possible attendees. All of them with the same geographical logistics and travel costs, etc. Exactly half of them are prog fans, half of them are power fans. Which show draws more out of those 100? And are you willing to put your money on the line based on your answer?

That would be a super hard choice for me to choose between since I would love to see 3/4 of both of those lineups

 

[Jasonic]

My rebutal would be album sales and that include comparing a release like "X" to the sales here in the States of someone like Edguy.

Have they passed their peak? Absolutely. However, their fanbase is just as big, if not bigger than some of my prevoius headliners at the time of their performance.

I don't know their album sales.
And I don't mean to be knocking FW as a band or their music.
Just speaking as an active metal concert attendee for 20+ years.

While FW might seem like underground giants in the prog scene, in the overall metal spectrum, they are not on the "A" list. That does not mean that it was a bad selection for the festival's headliner. I am truly not trying to say this at all.

I bring all this up in response to Met-Al's questioning as to why FW didn't draw more. They simply are not a "drawing" band by today's standards, where there is more competition than ever in the metal touring market here in the States.

Once again, a fest is not about the headliner alone, and I think FW was a nice addition to the overall mix.

 

[Jasonic]

I think its more that the Prog snobs think that Prog is so much better then Power because its more tech or complex. Where as the Power will typically just say its just fucking boring. lol

Once again, my stomach turns as someone who is into a WIDE variety of metal's sub genres, when folks here refer to bands as "Our Music"

There definitely is a sense of eliticism in such statements.

 

[Yippee38]

We're less interested in seeing old, inactive bands and repeats...headliners aren't as important (unlike the DT snob crowd).

This is my take too. I count myself as a progressive fan much moreso than a power fan, and as such, I like progression. I want to see a band that has put something out this century. Crimson Glory might have been at the roots of prog metal, but that's past history and so, in my mind, no longer relevant as progressive. That didn't come out right.

It's hard to express what I'm thinking.

As a prog fan, I want to hear music that is new, different, and interesting. A band that may have been all of those things 20 years ago is no longer all of those things. So even though I'm a prog metal fan, and enjoy Crimson Glory when I listen to their CDs, it's with a nostalgic ear, not with a prog metal ear. They were absolutely not a draw for me this year.

Of course, I'm a forum poster so I don't necessarily represent the masses either (nor the rest of the forum posters). That's just my opinion on the draw of a band like Crimson Glory. And to be honest, the same is somewhat true of Fates. Although I'm definitely a fanboy, they have released a disc in forever. It's kind of an out of sight (or hearing), out of mind thing.

 

[end]

This was a very interesting read. I am pretty pleased with how it all turned out.

 

[Yippee38]

Really, it comes down to one thing: prog fans are more likely to sit through a power-metal band than vice-versa. Translated, this means that powermetal fans are less likely to buy tickets for a prog-heavy lineup than prog fans for a power-heavy lineup.

I hadn't considered that, but damn. That's right on the money!

I look forward to next year. I look forward to Nocturnal Rites putting on as great a show as they did at Powerfest years ago. I look forward to seeing Tarot. I look forward to learning the music of some of the other, non-headlining bands. It will be good regardless, but I hope it sells out.

Power fans had to sit through three Prog bands to see Brainstorm, and the venue was packed for them.

But they don't. That's why the floor is empty for those prog acts. The reason it's full for the power acts, is because everybody is down there for those (both the power and the prog fans).

 

[TychoCelchu]

Two shows:

A. Blind Guardian, Pain of Salvation, Sabaton, Riverside.
B. Fates Warning (or sub any non DT related pure prog band), Gamma Ray, Vanden Plas, Brainstorm


You have 100 possible attendees. All of them with the same geographical logistics and travel costs, etc. Exactly half of them are prog fans, half of them are power fans. Which show draws more out of those 100? And are you willing to put your money on the line based on your answer?

I'm guessing the expected result would be more people for show A.
I'd be at show A myself.

 

[ICEDEARTHFAN]

I'm guessing the expected result would be more people for show A.
I'd be at show A myself.

I'm going to B but I would have everybody's favorite guy from this year's ProgPower go to A and record it illegally so I can watch it on You Tube

Just kidding Glenn.It really is a hard choice for me as I want to see all of the Power I can.

 

[Metal_Camden]

A spade is a spade Zod. You & I just don't play cards at the same table often.

I disagree with you argument above based on population pools alone. If this was only being sold as a local show, I agree totally. However, I pull from across the country. Comparing that available pool to the relatively small amount of tickets sold invalidates that to me.

Heres a hypothetical situation:

Two shows:

A. Blind Guardian, Pain of Salvation, Sabaton, Riverside.
B. Fates Warning (or sub any non DT related pure prog band), Gamma Ray, Vanden Plas, Brainstorm


You have 100 possible attendees. All of them with the same geographical logistics and travel costs, etc. Exactly half of them are prog fans, half of them are power fans. Which show draws more out of those 100? And are you willing to put your money on the line based on your answer?

i would make the drive from orlando solely to see blind guardian! see you at PPXI!

 

[euleria]

I flew in for PPX solely to see Fates. (THANK YOU Glenn for making Saturday-only tickets available; if I'd had to buy the two-day pass, I'm not sure I would have come.)

I'm ancient, hadn't heard of any of the other bands, and didn't get a chance to study their work before PPX. [The last new band I got into was Redemption, but only because I'm a Ray Alder completist.] For the most part, I enjoyed Saturday's gig, and will probably track down some new music in the coming months. But for me, this was at its core a rather expensive FW concert.

Clearly not many FW fans did what I did. I'm not surprised by that.

BTW, if you book Fifth Angel, Warlord, or Slavior for PPXII, I'll be there! (And yes, I know I'm far outside the target demographic.)

 

[kittybeast]

while I'd be at show B. I am more of a power metal fan overall but not by much these days as so much new prog music is leaning heavier for me. I enjoy both genres and always keep an open ear and mind at PP. This festival and it's attendees have turned me onto so much new music, hands down the best fest in U.S.

Living in Los Angeles we get a lot of tours but when you think $35+ for a Key club ticket, $20 to park, $10 cocktails..... vs. one PP weekend.... I'm 1/2 way there for a weekend ticket to PP.

 

[oldboy]

Well the snob argument cuts both ways. I understand this is very subjective, but my perception is that a prog fan is more likely to pay for a ticket for a power heavy lineup, and to stay to see the performance of a power headliner, than it is for a power fan to pay for a ticket for a prog heavy line up, and stay to see the performance of a prog headliner. Who's behaving like a snob? And this comes from someone who listens 70% power, and 30% prog.
I understand the situations surrounding this year's festivals were exceptionally frustrating, but it may be more productive to focus on positive alternatives, than to make a segment of the ticket buying public feel alienated by perpetuating stereotypes.

 

[Matt Crooks]

Two shows:

A. Blind Guardian, Pain of Salvation, Sabaton, Riverside.
B. Fates Warning (or sub any non DT related pure prog band), Gamma Ray, Vanden Plas, Brainstorm

As much as I would like to see show "B", I'd put my (promoter) money on "A".

 

[TheLongshot]

I'm still confused as to how bands like Fates Warning and Crimson Glory (playing exclusive U.S. shows, no less) aren't enough to draw a crowd. Though I was having the time of my life watching these headliners, I was extremely saddened to see that a good portion of the venue was empty for those sets.

Personally, I don't like either, so the headliners did nothing for me. This coming from a guy who has tried to like Fates for years and failed.

I think part of the problem is that you can't just sign a "prog band" and have everyone like it. Most power metal is generic enough that everyone has the same base they are working from. Prog of all sorts has a wide varience. That's particularly true for prog rock. It doesn't bother me because I have a wide range of music that I enjoy and often I go with the bands which are the most different. (Like DSO, for example)

To be honest, next year's lineup is probably stronger for me than this year's. It took Suspyre to sign up for the Showcase to get me to come. I hope that Glenn does stick with the Prog, because they are ultimately the bands with the most shelf life for me. Most power metal bands are interchangable in my eyes.

 

[Harvester]

, but it may be more productive to focus on positive alternatives, than to make a segment of the ticket buying public feel alienated by perpetuating stereotypes.

You are absolutely right. However, the one thing that I pride myself on is being brutally honest with the fans. That's both good & bad, but it is what it is. That is one of the things that makes this a unique festival.

 

[arnavut]

Thanks Glenn. For me these topics are like behind the scenes bonus materials of a dvd. Love it.

 

[longshot9]

*Cough* ANNIHILATOR GODDAMMIT! *Cough*

I will scream this every year until I turn blue.. hahahaha

Crap that would be awesome

 

[TheLongshot]

As for it explaining the attendance numbers... it doesn't. It doesn't explain it from the absurd "snob" concept, nor does it explain it from the belief that Prog fans don't support their genre as well as Power Metal fans. This is Occam's razor in effect; it's simple math. There are simply less Prog Metal fans. This is nothing new. It's always been this way. Anyone recall Maiden opening for Queensryche? Or Priest opening for Dream Theater? No. Prog Metal has now, just as it's always had, less appeal, and consequently a smaller fan base.

Zod

Unfortunately, Prog Metal works at a disadvantage in that the promoting vehicles that most of the monsters of power metal got (radio, MTV) are now dead. It doesn't stop people from finding the bands in some cases (like Dream Theater), but it does keep it from being a deep pool. (Just about every other Prog Metal band.)

Course, it is tough all over. When Sirius XM decides that both genres are pretty much classic rock now, you know you are going to have a tough row to hoe.

 

[longshot9]

Thanks for the interesting read as always Glenn, and thanks again for finally getting things to work out with Nocturnal Rites.

As for the Power/Prog snob issue... personally this year was strictly financial for me, same as last... but either way, if I can afford it i'll be there. I'm more of a power fan, but not the cheesy power... more of a catchy fan. I like stuff that's catchy, doesn't really matter to me what genre it is. I tend to fall towards the power bands cause they generally are more catchy. Every PP has had at least 1 band I wanted to see, last year was one of the lowest #'s of bands I wanted to see, but I still would have gone strictly for CM, Brainstorm, and Sabaton alone. As long as there's at least 1, i'll do everything I can to be there. It's more about the social aspect of it that makes me want to spend $1000+ just to "go see a concert" as my ex put it. I guess we'll see this year how things work out... prog heavy, or power heavy... i don't care, as long as it works for you and you keep doing this.