The Return of the "How it Happened" post...PP USA XI

[Matt Crooks]

Glenn - do you ever regret having the words "prog" and "power" in the name of the festival?

 

[VenomGA]

All of the bands on the progressive nation tours can "headline." Most of which have. Guess what: BTBAM, Opeth, Three, and ZPZ either match or outdraw all of those bands.

Opeth MAYBE, the others....no way in hell

 

[TychoCelchu]

I like that ProgPower caters to the "traditional" prog bands for its prog side. A lot of the progressive bands that aren't DT clones, which AeonicSlumber mentioned, are at common touring status in the US now. A lot of the trad-prog bands that show up on ProgPower are not, and those who are usually become so only after playing. Exclusivity is a big factor for me.

 

[General Zod]

I guess we could argue this point all day w/o hard evidence / national survey....

It seems you may have missed the point I was trying to make. Your focusing on economics. My analogy was intended to address a different disparity. Let me try a different approach.

What percentage of people go to art museums on a regular basis? What percentage of people choose a vastly superior subtitled foreign film over Die Hard 8? What percentage of people buy a classic work of literature over a Harry Potter book? What percentage of people choose Classical music over American Idol?

That which is simple, obvious and easily accessible will always appeal to the greatest common denominator. Conversely, that which is intrinsically complex, will always struggle to find an audience.

In all honesty, I find the timing of the discussion almost humorous. We live in a time where people don't even buy entire albums anymore. Where that which gets radio exposure is tightly monitored by massive corporations. Where the most popular show in the U.S. is a karaoke show. This is the environment people believe seven minute songs, chock full of time changes and extended instrumental passages are going to flourish in?

Zod

 

[dcowboys311]

I'm not talking about prog death man. I'm talking about progressive music in general. The Mars Volta for example is progressive, as well as Fair To Midland, without sounding anything like DT. And be that as it may, that the festival accepts DT esque bands, it doesn't make it right. Not all of the bands ProgPower Europe books come from the school of DT's side of things, because the majority of people (including everyone here I am sure by the way) commonly associate prog with more than just *those* kinds of bands. And guess what: I'm not saying those bands are bad either. Hell, I love a good bunch of them. What I am saying, is you can't only say well, here's Circus Maximus, Pagan's Mind, Fates Warning, Orphaned Land, etc etc and none of them bring in as many fans as Hammerfall or Helloween, or Stratovarius, so therefore power metal must be more popular! Do you not see how futile this kind of argument is? All of the prog bands listed are fairly young, with 4 or 5 CDs out at the most, and there's obviously more to prog than just those bands.

But this festival doesn't target progressive music in general. It targets progressive metal. So it's pointless to say "hey you should book Fair to Midland" when they aren't a progressive metal band.

 

[Cheiron]

Opeth MAYBE, the others....no way in hell

ZPZ draws 800+

 

[dcowboys311]

This is the environment people believe seven minute songs, chock full of time changes and extended instrumental passages are going to flourish in?

Zod

I don't think that anybody here honestly believes that it will flourish and go mainstream. But how is that any more absurd than thinking that 5-6 minute songs with extended guitar solos, singers whose nuts are in a vice, and lyrics about dragons and unicorns are going to flourish?

 

[dcowboys311]

Opeth MAYBE, the others....no way in hell

You obviously don't know much about BTBAM...the past 2 times I've seen them have been strictly headlining shows. The first of those two was just them, no support. It was a DVD shoot show however, but they sold out the venue. Last time I saw them was with support bands, but they were their friend's bands. No-name bands who don't even belong in the same genre. Sold about 500-600 tickets on a weekday night with a competing show 10 minutes away.

 

[Prog_Please]

It seems you may have missed the point I was trying to make. Your focusing on economics. My analogy was intended to address a different disparity. Let me try a different approach.

What percentage of people go to art museums on a regular basis? What percentage of people choose a vastly superior subtitled foreign film over Die Hard 8? What percentage of people buy a classic work of literature over a Harry Potter book? What percentage of people choose Classical music over American Idol?

That which is simple, obvious and easily accessible will always appeal to the greatest common denominator. Conversely, that which is intrinsically complex, will always struggle to find an audience.

Yes, thanks for the clarification.

I definitely agree with that for the most part. I think it also depends on location as well. I can tell you that the museums in San Francisco are packed on a regular basis. I've been to them all (the Samurai one is pretty badass IMO) and I know people who are into "simple" music frequent the museums as well (kids love their King Tut ya know?).

With San Francisco being quite a bit more liberal than most places, off-norm stuff goes over a lot better here than in most places (say Texas for example).

 

[General Zod]

I definitely agree with that for the most part. I think it also depends on location as well. I can tell you that the museums in San Francisco are packed on a regular basis. I've been to them all (the Samurai one is pretty badass IMO) and I know people who are into "simple" music frequent the museums as well (kids love their King Tut ya know?).

With San Francisco being quite a bit more liberal than most places, off-norm stuff goes over a lot better here than in most places (say Texas for example).

Not surprising. I've never been to San Fran, but it's on my short list of American cities I want to visit.

Zod

 

[booB]

This thread now officially has nothing to do with what it was originally about.

 

[Cheiron]

I don't think that anybody here honestly believes that it will flourish and go mainstream. But how is that any more absurd than thinking that 5-6 minute songs with extended guitar solos, singers whose nuts are in a vice, and lyrics about dragons and unicorns are going to flourish?

Exactly. Its not that absurd. Dragonforce happened.

And its not as if Estradasphere couldn't have been... well bigger...

 

[VenomGA]

You obviously don't know much about BTBAM...the past 2 times I've seen them have been strictly headlining shows. The first of those two was just them, no support. It was a DVD shoot show however, but they sold out the venue. Last time I saw them was with support bands, but they were their friend's bands. No-name bands who don't even belong in the same genre. Sold about 500-600 tickets on a weekday night with a competing show 10 minutes away.

Seen the band before by as an opener, never as a headliner.

 

[VenomGA]

ZPZ draws 800+

WHERE??? Certainly not in the Southeast, maybe California.

 

[General Zod]

Throughout this thread, there have been so many random assertions with no backing. You claim Opeth isn't prog because their "best" albums were their first 5? LoL, as if that's a competent excuse dude. You can't possibly lay down that highly subjective reasoning as a serious argument.

All arguments about genres and sub-genres will always be subjective and based largely on one's own opinion. I assumed everyone realized that at the onset and didn't feel the need to state the obvious.

I think Opeth's last 5 albums are their best, which are more progressive than the first bunch, therefore they are prog metal.

As noted, your entitled to that opinion.

And Mastodon has ALWAYS been lumped in as a progressive, post metal whatever sort of band.

Wow. Always? In capital letters no less? Good thing that's not a random assertion and can be backed up with empirical evidence.

Between The Buried and Me, Porcupine Tree, Opeth The Mars Volta, Coheed And Cambria, et al are all progressive bands and they all outdraw Hammerfall and Blind Guardian by the buttload.

The context of this argument has been Prog Metal and more specifically, the festival. Which of those bands are going to play this festival? Even outside the perspective of this festival, Coheed And Cambria, Mars Volta and Porcupine Tree are all more Prog Rock, than Prog Metal. Opeth drew a thousand people to Brooklyn on the strength of those first four discs, long before they introduced more dominant Prog elements. And Between The Buried and Me have largely toured as a support band.

Zod

 

[Magius]

I disagree with you argument above based on population pools alone. If this was only being sold as a local show, I agree totally. However, I pull from across the country. Comparing that available pool to the relatively small amount of tickets sold invalidates that to me.

I think it's this sort of sentiment that kinda proves what I said before. Prog fans are more likely to enjoy a good power band than vice-versa. And why not? Their shows are frequently more energetic and easier to "get into."

I just think that there are simply more powermetal fans out there than prog fans...or as Glenn has put it so succintly before, "power bands put asses in seats."

He has also stated that it's the headliners that sell the show outside of the yearly faithful. Of 800 general tickets offered for sale it would be safe to say that maybe 200 to 250 go to said faithful who come every year although they don't have Gold Badges. Figure another 200 to 250 go to attendees who like both genres. That accounts for roughly 300 to 400 tickets he needs to sell to the "general public," based on where ticket sales have slowed on years that didn't sell out.

I wouldn't expect fans of either genre to be impressed with two acts from genres they don't like in headliner spots. This is outside of this board. Therefore, it falls to fans of the headlining genre to buy out the fest. When there are two Power Metal bands on top this has happened. When there are two Progressive Metal bands on top it hasn't. While it's probably true that there are more Power Metal fans than Prog fans I believe Glenn's point is this: In a country of 300 million people, plus places like Canada and Mexico, it's hard to believe that he can't excite a mere 300 to 400 Progressive fans enough to buy out his tickets.

The economy is being blamed for this year; however, that doesn't explain the less than enthusiastic sales of VII. Also, if XI sells out in the same or worse economic environment that argument will be belied... time will tell.

As for the "old band" theory I'd point out that Ticket sales stalled while Matos was still listed a headliner. I don't think replacing Fates Warning with a band like Vanden Plas would have generated any more sales. Personally I think that Vanden Plas headlining this fest would be acceptable to the faithful and most on this board, but we are speaking of outside of that demographic.

I also think that as an old band Savatage, an actual reunion, would genrate a lot of excitement. Jasonic may not think so, but he's never been to a ProgPower. He hasn't seen all the 'Tage t-shirts around the venue. He doesn't know how often they come up in discussion, nor experienced the excitement of what was once announced as (members of) Savatage, but had to be changed to WMD.

I'm not clamoring for Savatage personally. I've seen them on two tours, seen the first Circle II Circle appearance at PPUSA IV, seen WMD, and JOP. I wouldn't mind them headlining, but I don't have the Savatage itch by any means. That said, Fates Warning may have been Glenn's white whale, but generally speaking Savatage is the audience's white whale. Old band or not.

 

[MetalRose]

I guess that means for PPUSA XII and on, a Progressive Death / Doom band will only make the bill if Glenn likes it, not because he wants to have a band of that type each year

Well it is ProgPower... For Progressive and Power Metal mostly. While I love death and doom bands, I expect to see Power and Prog bands as being the main bands at the fest... with a spattering of a "whatever" band.



-MetalRose

 

[euleria]

Regarding the claim that ZPZ draws crowds of over 800...

WHERE??? Certainly not in the Southeast, maybe California.

Collected ZPZ tour attendance and gross receipts are posted here:

http://www.zappa.com/messageboard/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=9952

(Probably lifted from Pollstar, or Billboard, or some other industry rag.)

I note shows in Boca Raton, Atlanta, NOLA, etc....

 

[AeonicSlumber]

Opeth MAYBE, the others....no way in hell

Yes way in hell. BTBAM is doing direct support for In Flames right now and their latest album sold over 20,000 albums in the first week. I'd like to see any of the power metal bands I mentioned save for Iced Earth sell that number. Three did direct support for Coheed And Cambria, Zappa Plays Zappa charges around $200 a ticket to headline and usually plays to several thousand people per show. They could have headlined over DT on the Prog Nation tour easily.

But this festival doesn't target progressive music in general. It targets progressive metal. So it's pointless to say "hey you should book Fair to Midland" when they aren't a progressive metal band.

But progressive metal doesn't necessarily = graduating from the DT school of things either.

 

[AirGuitarLoonhouse]

Well it is ProgPower... For Progressive and Power Metal mostly. While I love death and doom bands, I expect to see Power and Prog bands as being the main bands at the fest... with a spattering of a "whatever" band.



-MetalRose

QFT. I like the recipe as described by Glenn at the start of this post, some power, some prog, and the "whatever" metal band(s) that may touch on prog or power but definitely branch into some other territories.

Fresh is good.